Mormonism is a Cult it's not Christian (2 views)
 From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/24/2001 5:05 pm  
To:  ALL    
 
  15.1  
 
The official Mormon church has recently declared a desire to distance themselves from the names Mormon and Latter-day Saints (LDS) and to now refer to themselves as the Church of Jesus Christ. This because Mormons believe themselves to be the only and true church and followers of Jesus. How ironic that the followers of the American - Joseph Smith would believe themselves to be the true followers of the Jewish - Jesus of Israel. 
This is part of the article that appeared in the * Southern California Christian times Vol. 12 No.4 April 2001. Then I will make some comments about Mormonism. 

*Get this. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will increase its efforts to discourage the use of the term Mormon Church and instead emphasize the name Jesus Christ when referring to the church. In an interview with the New York Times, Mormon Apostle Dallin H. Oaks said The church will urge reporters to initially identify it by its full name, and subsequently call it the church of Jesus Christ. <end> quote. 

If this sounds like deception it is because it is! 
The Mormon Church is deliberately trying to avoid their true identity as a cult and instead parade themselves as something they are not, which is true Christian followers of Jesus. 

Following are a few considerations as to why Mormonism is a cult and in no way resembles Christianity. 

Mormons would have us believe that Mormonism is a Christian denomination, in fact according to the Mormons they are the only denomination in favor with God and therefore the exclusive denomination and the exclusive church of Jesus. Keep in mind that Mormons do not even follow Jesus or the Bible. Mormons follow their writings and their Apostles like the Apostle Dallin H. Oaks. 

1) The number one reason Mormons are not Christians is because the jesus that the Mormons acknowledge, is the jesus they claim to be the twin brother of Satan the devil. The jesus that the Mormons follow is a brother of Satan and is No resemblance to the actual Jesus of Nazareth, the Only begotten Son of God. The true Jesus and the devil are not brothers. Jesus is God in physical form. The devil was created as an angel and is now a fallen sinful angel, responsible for much of the suffering mankind endures today. 

2) Mormons believe that they will one day become gods and the Male Mormons will rule as and populate as gods their own planet, with their own harem of obedient Female Mormons. Doesnt sound like much of a heaven for the women. I have never heard of changing dirty diapers as compared to heaven. Actually this is just about what the Muslims believe that Allah will give them a harem in heaven. Jesus has stated that there will be no marring in heaven {Mark 12:25}, but then we know that they are not Christians and are not following Jesus. 

3) The promise to become as a god is not unique to the Mormons, Satan also tempted and deceived Eve with this first lie in the Bible. Satan tempted Eve saying she could become as god [if she disobeyed God] or is that she could become a Mormon? Since Eve fell for the gimmick that she could become a god wouldnt that make Eve the first Mormon and not Joseph Smith. And since Satan is the instructor of the Mormon religion doesnt it make Satan the god of the Mormon Church. 

Genesis 3:4,5 And the serpent said unto the woman [Eve], ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 

Genesis 3;13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent has beguiled (tricked/lied) me, and I did eat. 

4) The Bible mainly consists of two covenants (agreements/arrangements) also called Testaments. The Old Testament and The New Testament. Mankind sinned against the Holy God and is therefore separated from the visible presence and fellowship of the Holy God. The Old Testament/Covenant of the Bible states that God will reunite separated mankind to God here on earth. This covenant was made permanent by the shedding of blood, in this case the blood of bulls, sheep, and goats. [shed blood  death, makes an agreement permanent, once you have died you can no longer change your mind, in this case the animals substitution ally died.] The New Testament states that all of our sins which separate us from a relationship with Holy God will be permanently taken away, in this case by the physical death of God. God became a physical person (Jesus) to physically die and to reunite us with God in a permanent Spiritual relationship with God. In other words when we have a New Covenant relationship with God [we acknowledge our sin and accept Jesus as our Savior] God does not see our sins and our faults. When God looks at us He sees the Righteousness of Jesus and not the sinfulness of us. Without sin [because Jesus cleaned us from sin] we can now have a relationship with Holy God. 

5) Therefore Two covenants, confirmed by the death and shedding of blood. The second Covenant confirmed by the death and shed blood of Jesus on the cross. Joseph Smith finding fault with the original two covenants between God and mankind has written a new new covenant. If the Mormons were to follow Jesus then Jesus would have to die again in order to make this new new Mormon covenant a true covenant between God and man. It is not possible for a second time for Jesus to suffer and die again, therefore it is not possible to have yet another covenant between God and mankind. 

6) The second Covenant/New Testament was written by disciple of Jesus to Confirm the promises made in the first Covenant/Old testament. In effect there is nothing New in the New Testament except that the Gentiles can also come to God through the blood of Jesus. Gentiles can become Christians because of the blood of Jesus, otherwise we would have to be circumcised and become Jews to have the covenant relationship with God. The Mormons having rejected the New Testament in the blood of Jesus have Made themselves to be the true Jews. Yes, the Mormons believe that they are both the true Church and also the true Jews. I wonder if the True Jews [the physical relatives of Jesus], living in Israel know that the Mormons think they are the Jews. 

7) The Mormons also claim the authority of the Melchizidak Priesthood for their Apostles, Prophets, Priests and church leaders. For people to go to God a High Priest is required to take us into the presence of God. Jesus is our High Priest in the order of Melchizidak. The Levitical priesthood consists only of descendants of Aaron [the brother of Moses]. If Jesus had a human priesthood He would have been born into the tribe of Levi and become a human priest. Jesus has a Godly Devine Priesthood and is therefore in the order of Melchizidak and not of the Aaronic Priesthood. The requirements to become a human priest to God are to be born as a descendant in the family of Aaron. The requirements to become a Melchizidak Priest are opposite of the Aaronic priesthood. To become a Melchizidak Priest one has to be [Eternal] without father and without mother and without beginning of days nor without end of life in other words to be a Melchizidak Priest one has to be God. Only God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, and God the Son Jesus, are [Eternal] and therefore eligible to be Melchizedek Priests. True to their intent the Mormons are trying to become Gods by claiming the Devine Priesthood of Melchizidak as their own. It is actually funny that Mormons the people with the most genealogy [any genealogy immediately disqualifies you from being a Melchizidak Priest] are the people who claim this priesthood. If you want to research your personal family genealogy you go to the Mormon records in Salt Lake city because the Mormons have the most extensive genealogy records on themselves and others. 

Hebrews 7:3 [Melchisedec] Without father, without mother, without descent (descendants), having neither beginning of days, nor end of life [Eternal], but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. 

Jesus is both God and man, Jesus has always existed as God, He became a man to become our redeemer to die a physical death on the cross for us. Jesus is both man, born to the Virgin Mary, and He is also [Eternal] God and Melchizidak Priest. 

These are just a few of the many reasons Mormonism is a cult and is in now way Christian in origin. There are many good books and web sites, by ex-Mormons who have left the despair of Mormonism and entered into a true relationship with God in Jesus. 

It is the responsibility of the Christian Church to not allow the world to become confused by the Mormons deceptive claims to be Christianity or to represent Christianity. 

2John 1:10,11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine [Jesus is God], receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed: For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds. 

Your Brother in Jesus Christ, 
David A. Brown 
www.BasicChristian.org 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/26/2001 12:58 pm  
To:  ALL   (2 of 69)  
 
  15.2 in reply to 15.1  
 
Here is some additional information. 
The Mormons have a new new testament: Did Jesus die again to confirm the new new testament, Because unless Jesus died like He did on the Cross to confirm the real New Testament, Then you do not have a Covenant between God and Man. Jesus is God and covenants between Him and man are covenants between God and man. Death makes a covenant permanent/unchangeable. Joseph Smith is a man, the new new covenant that Mormons follow is a covenant from a (sinful) man to (sinful) man and is totally worthless in the eyes of Holy God. 

The Mormon church is a Cult. With all the Cult trappings of secret symbols, secret handshakes, secret meanings, even secret Underwear (how holy). 

It is a Cult with hierarchy, each person considers themselves higher than the next person, until eventually they consider themselves gods. 

The Mormon church, engages in spirit worship of the dead, and many similar yucky practices. 

Mormons do NOT partake in the bread and wine communion that Jesus instructed the Church to do. Mormons instead partake in bread & water to symbolize the spiritual prison that they are in without the true Jesus. 






David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    4/27/2001 10:39 am  
To:  ALL   (3 of 69)  
 
  15.3 in reply to 15.2  
 
As Mormons continue to refer to themselves as Christians, this is a huge ERROR. Only someone who knows Jesus as God is a Christian, a follower of Christ Jesus. If you believe Jesus to be a man than you are eligible to be a Muslim, a Jehovah's Whiteness, or a Mormon, but you are not eligible to be a Christian.
To be in the Church of Jesus you Must Believe that Jesus is God.


Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the Church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood. Acts 20:28


But (we) have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every mans conscience in the sight of God. But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god (Satan) of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the Glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 2Corinthians 4:2-7


My continued prayer and my continuing hope for Mormons, is that when you get tired of rules, regulations, and rituals that you will turn to Jesus as almighty God, who loves you and gave his life for you. Jesus died for you, so that you can live with Him, no more striving. 


That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thy heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9,10






David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/4/2001 8:50 am  
To:  ALL   (4 of 69)  
 
  15.4 in reply to 15.3  
 

Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry 
Is an Exellent Resource for Information on all the major Cults. 

Providing well Documented Information. 

www.carm.org




David A. Brown
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/7/2001 3:13 pm  
To:  ALL   (5 of 69)  
 
  15.5 in reply to 15.4  
 
  A fairly reliable sign of one who speaks truth, or at least speaks what he sincerely believes to be truth, is a willingness, to tolerate, and even to welcome, opposing views.  After all, if you have confidence in the truth of your position, then you must be confident that your position will stand up to honest debate and discussion.

  A sure sign of one whose intent is to deceive is an unwillingness to tolerate such honest and open discussion.  A deceiver will seek to silence and censor those who challenge his claims.

  A few days ago, I posted a rebuttal to Mr. Brown's ignorant and deceptive statements about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (commonly known as the Mormon church.  Perhaps it was not the best rebuttal that could ever be posted, but it represented the best of my own knowledge and understanding of this religion, of which I am a practicing member, and of my ability to explain our true beliefs and the significance of them, with respect to the misinformation which Mr. Brown had posted.  It also represented several hours of my effort.  Foolishly, I failed to keep a copy of it on my own system.

  I see now what Mr. Brown's reaction has been to my rebuttal.  His reaction has been to censor it, to delete it from this forum, along with any replies which it may have drawn.  I rather expect that this posting, too, will suffer the same fate.  This should make it clear to all who either see this post, or who might have briefly seen my other posting, how honest and sincere Mr. Brown is with respect to his attacks on Mormonism.

  David A. Brown, it appears to me, and it should appear to anyone else who has observed this, that you know that your statements about Mormonism are inaccurate, or at the very least, that you have no confidence in these statements or in your ability to back them up in an honest discussion.  I challenge you to demonstrate that I am wrong in this impression of you.  The way to do this is to publically reply to this message, here in this forum, inviting me to post another rebuttal.  I don't know when I'll have time to create another rebuttal, (assuming I'm not able to salvage the remains of the previous one from my hard drive) but when I do, your part in the challenge is to not delete or censor my rebuttal, but rather to honestly address those points therein where you think I am wrong, to provide evidence and logic to support your own points.  Honorable and courageous men carry out discussions in this manner.  Cowards and liars censor and delete opposing views, where they are able.  Which are you?

  If this message is deleted, or if you do not respond to it, then that last question will have thus been answered.



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 To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!

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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/7/2001 3:49 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (6 of 69)  
 
  15.6 in reply to 15.5  
 
Bob, 
Upon seeing that you replied to an existing post, by creating a new post, I looked over your post and decided that it would only make sense to have your post in the proper string. If at a later date someone read your rebuttal and my original post was no longer available it would not make sense to the reader. As the host I was simply trying to moderate the forum and keep like information together. 

I e-mailed you, then thinking you could easily repost [the way the memo was formatted and with a signature, it looked like a considerable effort and I hoped/presumed that it was saved on disk]. I decided before your new string was added to that I would delete it [an action I did not want to take.] 

After I deleted your post I received an error to your e-mail. It was returned do to a Spam Protection you have. I followed the directions again e-mailed you that your post was deleted and to Please Re-Post under the existing string. 

However the second e-mail returned to me as a non-valid account. 

I apologize for your effort and that you cannot easily re-post. I look forward to dialoguing with you, and I thank you for your comments and contribution to the topic. 

Please Note: That there is not a Conspiracy against you, and I would Appreciate it if you would give me the benefit of the doubt or at least contact me, my e-mail is current, before you make a series of allegations. This forum is intended for calm discussion and I would appreciate it if you would moderate your tone in your posts. 

Please feel free to repost. 

Thank You, 
David 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/9/2001 8:01 am  
To:  ALL   (7 of 69)  
 
  15.7 in reply to 15.6  
 
  As it turns out, I was able to salvage my original posting out of my cache.  I think, however, I'll hold off on reposting it until I've had a chance to do some serious editing and rewriting.  I tend to take a rather beligerent and accusatory tone in some of my writings, which are probably not appropriate here.  (Most of my other activities on Delphi, and in some other forums, are directed at fools who fall for and/or promote various pyramid schemes, Ponzi schemes, and other examples of the financial fraud that has become rampant on the net.  Rather a different audience than here, I suppose.)



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 To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!

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From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/13/2001 8:35 pm  
To:  ALL    
 
    
 
  OK, here's my edited rebuttal.  I've mostly rewritten it to try to eliminate, or at least greatly reduce, the beligerence that is often part of my writing style.  I've also rewritten a few parts, where I thought I could make them more clear.  There are parts of this that I am sure someone else could write even more clearly and coherently than I have.


  I think that for any discussion of this sort to be carried out, we need to agree on a definition of the word Christian.  I think the defenition found here is as good a definition as will be found anywhere:  one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ

  I am often amazed at the lengths to which certain dishonest people will go in order to argue that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members do not meet this definition, and how eagerly other people, however sincere and well-meaning they might be, accept these deceptions, and repeat them.  Clearly, we believe in, and attempt to follow, the teachings of Jesus Christ, according to our best understanding of these teachings.  I will try to address some of the deceptions which have been posted here.


The official Mormon church has recently declared a desire to distance themselves from the names Mormon and Latter-day Saints (LDS) and to now refer to themselves as the Church of Jesus Christ. This because Mormons believe themselves to be the only and true church and followers of Jesus.
  .
  .
  .
Get this. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will increase its efforts to discourage the use of the term Mormon Church and instead emphasize the name Jesus Christ when referring to the church. In an interview with the New York Times, Mormon Apostle Dallin H. Oaks said The church will urge reporters to initially identify it by its full name, and subsequently call it the church of Jesus Christ. <end> quote. 

If this sounds like deception it is because it is! The Mormon Church is deliberately trying to avoid their true identity as a cult and instead parade themselves as something they are not, which is true Christian followers of Jesus.
  There is no deception here, on the part of the church.  The official name of this church has always been The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  The use of the term Mormon as an identifier for this church was originally used by our enemies, as a derogatory term.  The nickname rather firmly stuck, and, because it's a lot easier to say the Mormon church than to say The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the term continues to be widely used even today.  Rather like the use of the term Yankee to refer to citizens of the United States of America.



How ironic that the followers of the American - Joseph Smith would believe themselves to be the true followers of the Jewish - Jesus of Israel.
  We are not followers of Joseph Smith, any more than we are followers of Abraham or Moses or Elijah or any other of the ancient prophets.  We are followers of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.  We are no different, in this respect, than any other Christians, other than that we believe that God continues to guide us through his living prophets even today.

  Aside from that, I don't see what the point is in critizing us for our national origin.  Is Isreal the only place from which a true following of Jesus Christ may begin?



1) The number one reason Mormons are not Christians is because the jesus that the Mormons acknowledge, is the jesus they claim to be the twin brother of Satan the devil. The jesus that the Mormons follow is a brother of Satan and is No resemblance to the actual Jesus of Nazareth, the Only begotten Son of God. The true Jesus and the devil are not brothers. Jesus is God in physical form. The devil was created as an angel and is now a fallen sinful angel, responsible for much of the suffering mankind endures today.
  Sometimes, the very best lies are those which are formed by slight distortions of the truth.  More on this point later.  The correct LDS belief is that we are all the spiritual children of God, the Father, and in this sense, we are all brothers and sisters.  Jesus is our brother, as was Lucifer, but there is nothing in our beliefs that characterises Jesus and Lucifer as twins.  It's been a point of controversy for thousands of years whether Jesus is, in fact, the very same person as God the Father, or whether he has his own, separate identity.  We believe the latter.  Jesus was designated to have the role of the savior to all of us, his siblings, to be born in the flesh as a literal, physical son of God the Father.  Lucifer, an arrogant and vainglorious spirit who thought he knew better than God, was jealous of Jesus, and of God the Father; he wanted all the fame and glory for himself.

  The Jesus Christ who we follow is our spiritual brother, and he is literally the only Begotten son of God, having been born in Bethlehem of Mary who was a virgin, and having lived in Nazareth.  Though there may be some disagreement between your version of Christianity and mine concerning the spiritual identity of Jesus, and how he relates to God the Father and to us, I think it is clearly an exercise in dishonesty to claim that our Jesus is a different person than your Jesus.



2) Mormons believe that they will one day become gods and the Male Mormons will rule as and populate as gods their own planet, with their own harem of obedient Female Mormons. Doesn't sound like much of a heaven for the women. I have never heard of changing dirty diapers as compared to heaven. Actually this is just about what the Muslims believe that Allah will give them a harem in heaven. Jesus has stated that there will be no marring (sic) in heaven {Mark 12:25}, but then we know that they are not Christians and are not following Jesus.
  I must admit to being a bit hazy on what the exact true doctrine is in this regard.  It is, I am fairly sure, our doctrine that all of us have the potential, eventually, to become just like God.  Exactly what this means, I am not sure.  I do not know if it means we will go out to create our own worlds, and our own people on these worlds, independently of our God, or whether we will, in some more cooperative manner, share with our God in his own glory and creations.  The bit about having our own harem of obedient Female Mormons is nonsense.  We do have a deep belief in the importance of marriage and family, and we believe that marriage and family are meant to continue into the next life.  Where a widowed husband, having been sealed to his first wife, marries again, and is sealed to his new wife, then he will have more than one wife in heaven.  But it's quite a leap in ogic to go from this to your statement about our own harem of obedient Female Mormons.

  In understanding the passage in Mark 12:25, please remember that Jesus was speaking to the Sadduces, a group which had no belief in an afterlife, and who, consequently, did not participate in those ceremonies and ordinances required to seal marriages and families in the afterlife.  The Sadduces did not pose their question to Jesus seeking an honest answer; they were trying to bait him into saying something which would contradict their own teachings, so that they could trap him and discredit him.  Jesus was clever enough not to fall into their trap.  He gave them an answer which was true, at least so far as it concerned the Sadduces, and which failed to give them anything that they could use against him.



3) The promise to become as a god is not unique to the Mormons, Satan also tempted and deceived Eve with this first lie in the Bible. Satan tempted Eve saying she could become as god [if she disobeyed God] or is that she could become a Mormon? Since Eve fell for the gimmick that she could become a god wouldnt that make Eve the first Mormon and not Joseph Smith

Genesis 3:4,5 And the serpent said unto the woman [Eve], ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
  Remember what I said earlier, about the best lie being a partial truth?  Lucifer was not literally lying when he said to Eve, that she would be as God, knowing good from evil, if she ate the fruit.  At the time he said this, God knew good from evil, and Eve did not.  By eating the fruit, Eve gained this knowledge, and thus became a little bit more like God.  Lucifer told a partial truth, out of context, which was a better deception than an outright lie would have been.



5) Therefore Two covenants, confirmed by the death and shedding of blood. The second Covenant confirmed by the death and shed blood of Jesus on the cross. Joseph Smith finding fault with the original two covenants between God and mankind has written a new new covenant. If the Mormons were to follow Jesus then Jesus would have to die again in order to make this new new Mormon covenant a true covenant between God and man. It is not possible for a second time for Jesus to suffer and die again, therefore it is not possible to have yet another covenant between God and mankind.
  The point of Jesus' suffering and death was not, as you say, to confirm the New Testament.  The point of Jesus' suffering and death was to pay the price for all our sins, to make it possible for us to be forgiven of our sins and eventually to reenter into the presense of our Heavenly Father.

  What we now know as The New Testament is a collecting of separate, unrelated writings, by various authors based on their observations of some of the same events.  Most of these were not written until well after Jesus had come and gone, and they were not collected into any kind of unified single collection until much later yet.  The whole of what we call The Holy Bible is a collection of such writings, bearing the records of people who (at least from the time of Noah) lived on the European and African continents,and of God's dealings with these people.  The Book of Mormon is a similar record of people who, under God's guidance, separated from the people of The Bible, who travelled to the American continents, and who, for a time, lived on these continents, and of God's dealings with these people.  To suggest that Jesus must die twice to validate both sets of records, indeed to suggest that Jesus' death had any relevance to validating one of these sets of records, is absurd.



Yes, the Mormons believe that they are both the true Church and also the true Jews. I wonder if the True Jews [the physical relatives of Jesus], living in Israel know that the Mormons think they are the Jews.
  We do not believe that we are the true Jews.  As far as I know, we have no belief that could rationally be construed to mean that we do.



The Mormons also claim the authority of the Melchizidak Priesthood for their Apostles, Prophets, Priests and church leaders. For people to go to God a High Priest is required to take us into the presence of God. Jesus is our High Priest in the order of Melchizidak. The Levitical priesthood consists only of descendants of Aaron [the brother of Moses]. If Jesus had a human priesthood He would have been born into the tribe of Levi and become a human priest. Jesus has a Godly Devine (sic) Priesthood and is therefore in the order of Melchizidak and not of the Aaronic Priesthood. The requirements to become a human priest to God are to be born as a descendant in the family of Aaron. The requirements to become a Melchizidak Priest are opposite of the Aaronic priesthood. To become a Melchizidak Priest one has to be [Eternal] without father and without mother and without beginning of days nor without end of life in other words to be a Melchizidak Priest one has to be God. Only God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, and God the Son Jesus, are [Eternal] and therefore eligible to be Melchizedek Priests. True to their intent the Mormons are trying to become Gods by claiming the Devine (sic) Priesthood of Melchizidak as their own

Hebrews 7:3 [Melchisedec] Without father, without mother, without descent (descendants), having neither beginning of days, nor end of life [Eternal], but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
  The passage you cite apears to describe characteristics of Melchizedek, but does not seem to necesarrily say that these characteristics are required in order to hold the same priesthood which he had.  Indeed, it appears that for your own statements to not be self-contradictory, you must claim that Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18-20) is the same person as either God the Father, Jesus Christ, or The Holy Ghost.  Do you seriously wish to claim this?

  As for who is eligible to have any priesthood, in the Old Testament, the Aaronic Priesthood was only available to the Levites, and very little indication of anyone holding the Melchizedek Priesthood.  Jesus bestowed some priesthood upon his disciples, many of whom were not Levites, and if the Catholic, Anglican, or Orthodox churches are to be believed, there are priests among them, the vast majority of whom are almost certainly not descendants of Levi.  I think it is clear that Jesus intended to lift the limit that only Levites could be priests.



The Mormon church, engages in spirit worship of the dead, and many similar yucky practices.
  I'm not sure what other similar yucky practices you speak of, but we most certainly do not engage in any practice that could reasonably be construed as spirit worship of the dead.  We do engage in practices which seek to obtain the salvation of those who have passed on, but this does not constitute, in any reasonable sense, worship of these people.  It is our belief, as, if I am not mistaken, the belief of most other Christian sects, that there are certain things we must learn, certain things we must do, and certain ordinances in which we must partake, in order to obtain salvation.  Most of Christianity doesn't address the plight of those people who are born, who live, and who die, without ever learning of Jesus Christ, and the logical conclusion, under most versions of Christianity, is that such people are condemned to Hell.  This is hardly consistent with the notion of a just and loving God.  Surely, if God is what we believe him to be, he would make it possible for all people, regardless of the circumstances in which they were born, to achieve salvation, would he not?  We LDS believe that he has, through a means that is only very vaguely hinted at in the Bible.  See 1 Corinthians 15:29.  We believe that all who did not get the opportunity to learn of Christ in this life, to accept his teachings and ordinances, and partake in his salvation, will receive this opportunity in the afterlife.  They will still have the choice to accept or reject the Gospel, but if they accept, then certain ordinances will need to be performed on their behalf here on Earth.  This is why we engage in our massive geneaological efforts to locate and identify such people on whose behalf these ordinances have not been performed, and to perform these ordinances in our Temples, so that when all has happened, nobody will have been denied Salvation, save for having been offered it and chosen to reject it.



Mormons do NOT partake in the bread and wine communion that Jesus instructed the Church to do. Mormons instead partake in bread & water to symbolize the spiritual prison that they are in without the true Jesus.
  We now use water instead of wine, but we take this bread in remembrance of the body of Jesus Christ, and the water in remembrance of his blood, as a reminder and acknowledgement of the great sacrifice that Jesus made for us so that we could all be saved.  Is this not very much the same meaning you attach to this ritual?  I find your claim that we would do anything to symbolize the spiritual prison that they are in without the true Jesus. odd.  Obviously, we do not believe that we are in any spiritual prison, nor do we believe that we are without the true Jesus.  What sense does it make, then, to claim that we would do anything based on such a belief? 



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Edited 7/1/01 12:00:12 AM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/13/2001 9:58 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (9 of 69)  
 
  15.9 in reply to 15.5  
 
Bob, 
Thanks for all the additional effort and I do appreciate the new tone of this post. 

Your post reminded me of just why I made the original posting. Mormonism is undergoing a concerted effort into claiming the title of followers of Christ Jesus and therefore as Christians. Since I made the original post a person relayed to me that their opinion is that this is a part of the continued deliberate plan of the Mormon Cult to deceive people into thinking that Mormonism is valid. That this plan is in accordance with the coming Winter Olympics, which will be hosted by Salt Lake City UT. This current push to negate the current term Mormon and to use the term Christian is a Media public relations propaganda ploy. I was quite amazed at this persons statement and at their insight into current events, since I did not even consider the extent of the Mormon plan. I whole heartedly agree their conclusions. 

I have posted the original posting on several forums including the LDS Apologetics forum and at each posting Mormons have responded that the term Mormon is a derogatory term invented by their enemys and that the term must be removed. I find this to be a most disingenuous statement from Mormons. Mormons themselves world wide use the term and refer to themselves as Mormons and if that is not enough their Very Own sacred book is called the BoM Book of Mormon as the information was given to Joseph Smith from the angel Maroni. The term Mormon is a Mormon invention and a self imposed term. The Real reason Mormons want to acquire the Name Christian is because it is a Better Name and Indeed it is the Best Name as it is the Name Purchased by the Love and Blood of Jesus. 

Since posting and debating Mormon practices I have concluded that the Mormons are even More of a Cult than I even realized at the beginning. There is No Chance that Mormonism will Ever be accepted as Christianity the beliefs do not even remotely resemble each other. They only sound similar because Joseph Smith so heavily Plagiarized the Bible for his own use. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/14/2001 12:06 am  
To:  ALL   (10 of 69)  
 
  15.10 in reply to 15.9  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote
Your post reminded me of just why I made the original posting. Mormonism is undergoing a concerted effort into claiming the title of followers of Christ Jesus and therefore as Christians. Since I made the original post a person relayed to me that their opinion is that this is a part of the continued deliberate plan of the Mormon Cult to deceive people into thinking that Mormonism is valid. That this plan is in accordance with the coming Winter Olympics, which will be hosted by Salt Lake City UT. This current push to negate the current term Mormon and to use the term Christian is a Media public relations propaganda ploy. I was quite amazed at this persons statement and at their insight into current events, since I did not even consider the extent of the Mormon plan. I whole heartedly agree their conclusions. 
  It is not the case that we have just now decided to call ourselves Christians.  We have always been Christians, and we have always called ourselves Christians.  It is only through the efforts of dishonest or gullible fools that attempts have been made to redefine the term Christian to exclude those sects, including us, with which these fools disagreed.  The true definition of Christian, as I have already pointed out, is very simple and clear.  Any religion which follows the teachings of Jesus Christ, which acknowledges Jesus' role as our Lord and Savior, and as the Only Begotten Son of God, is Christian.  And we most certainly meet this definition.



I have posted the original posting on several forums including the LDS Apologetics forum and at each posting Mormons have responded that the term Mormon is a derogatory term invented by their enemys and that the term must be removed.  I find this to be a most disingenuous statement from Mormons. Mormons themselves world wide use the term and refer to themselves as Mormons
  I disagree.  Though the term Mormon as first used by enemies of the church, as a derogatory term, I do not consider it derogatory, I do not consider anyone who uses the term to be an enemy, and I do not see a great need to eliminate its use.  I will very proudly be called a Mormon.  For whatever reason, the church's leadership has decided that the use of this term is to be discouraged.



and if that is not enough their Very Own sacred book is called the BoM Book of Mormon as the information was given to Joseph Smith from the angel Maroni (sic).
  .
  .
  .
They only sound similar because Joseph Smith so heavily Plagiarized the Bible for his own use. 
I'm trying very hard to avoid the beligerent tone that infuses much of my writing, but there is no polite way to say this.  You clearly are speaking of things that are well outside of your knowledge.  Read the Book of Mormon for yourself, and perhaps then you'll be qualified to say something of its contents and of how it compares to the Bible.  Right now, it is quite obvious that you know nothing of what is written in the Book of Mormon, and your comments on it amount to what I would find to be an embarassing show of ignorance.



The term Mormon is a Mormon invention and a self imposed term. The Real reason Mormons want to acquire the Name Christian is because it is a Better Name and Indeed it is the Best Name as it is the Name Purchased by the Love and Blood of Jesus. 
  We are not trying to acquire anything.  We are Christians, and have always been, and we have always called ourselves such.



Since posting and debating Mormon practices I have concluded that the Mormons are even More of a Cult than I even realized at the beginning.
  What is a cult, really, but a religion with which one strongly disagrees?  Usually, the term is reserved for use in describing religions which have obviously-destructive beliefs or practices.  An example would be the People's Temple, the followers of Jim Jones, who committed mass suicide in Guyana many years back, or more recently, the Heaven's Gate bunch.  That group that made Sarin nerve gas and released it in some of Japan's subways would be another.  But some foolish people carelessly throw this term at any religion that they perceive as being too far out of synch with their own.  I think this says more about the person using the term cult than it says about the group to which they apply this term.



There is No Chance that Mormonism will Ever be accepted as Christianity the beliefs do not even remotely resemble each other. 
  We already are accepted, by most of the mainstream world, as a Christian church.  Only a small group of ignorant or dishonest fools claim otherwise.  Not that this is what matters, when you really get down to it.  In the early days of Christianity, it was rejected by much of the Roman society.  Christians were, at times, persecuted and murdered.  This happens even today in some societies, most notably Communist societies, and some of the more militant Moslem societies.  If Christianity in general can remain true, even in the face of such large-scale rejection in some societies, then certainly the version of Christianity in which I believe can remain true in the face of rejection by a few small-minded fools. 



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/14/2001 12:49 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (11 of 69)  
 
  15.11 in reply to 15.10  
 
Bob, 
I do enjoy dialoguing with you, and I am very hopeful/confident that you will Accept the True Jesus and become a Christian because I think that you unlike many Mormons are actually interested in Truth and Jesus as God is the Truth. 

I do Strongly Disagree with your use of the term Christian. Every Cult becomes a Cult by defining away reality, they do this by Inventing their own terms and definitions for previously defined words. This is an area that Mormonism has excelled in they redefine every word to fit their every need. Reality has No part in Mormon word definition and therefore reality has no part in Mormon doctrine. 

The Word Christian as it used in the Bible, Exclusively refers to People Who are Born Again by the Spirit of God. Mormons are Not born again and cannot be born again until they Renounce Joseph Smith & Mormonism and reject the self righteous Work for Redemption that Mormonism teaches. Being Born Again is to be Spiritually born of God to become a child of God. This Only takes place because All Sins are forgiven in the Atonement Blood of Jesus. Mormons do not believe in the Complete Atonement of the Blood of Jesus. Mormons are in a Cult following Cult practices as a Secret Cult Society and your sins are not forgiven. Mormons are still under sin, and cannot be born again. 

Don't try to claim that you are a child of God, because the children of God do not Work to obtain Salvation the children of God already have Salvation.




David A. Brown
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/14/2001 8:34 am  
To:  ALL   (12 of 69)  
 
  15.12 in reply to 15.11  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
I do enjoy dialoguing with you, and I am very hopeful/confident that you will Accept the True Jesus and become a Christian because I think that you unlike many Mormons are actually interested in Truth and Jesus as God is the Truth.
  Like all true Mormons, I have accepted the true Jesus, and I already am a Christian.



I do Strongly Disagree with your use of the term Christian. Every Cult becomes a Cult by defining away reality, they do this by Inventing their own terms and definitions for previously defined words. This is an area that Mormonism has excelled in they redefine every word to fit their every need. Reality has No part in Mormon word definition and therefore reality has no part in Mormon doctrine.
  It is not us that are redefining words to suit our own meanings.  I suggest you take a look in any dictionary to see how the word Christian is defined.  While you're there, look up cult.
You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.  Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride 




The Word Christian as it used in the Bible, Exclusively refers to People Who are Born Again by the Spirit of God.
  The word Christian appears in the bible three times, that I can find.  Acts 11:26 mentions that the term was first used, to describe Christ's disciples, in Antioch.  In Acts 26:28, King Agrippa says that he is amost persuaded to be a Christian.  In 1 Peter 4:16, it is wrtten that if any man suffer as a Christian, he should not be ashamed.  What I cannot find is any place in The Bible where the word Christian is given a definition that is as complex as yours.  I say again that it appears to me that you are using a definition of Christian which is not to be found or supported in The Bible, which is specifically crafted to exclude certain legitimate sects of Christianity with which you disagree.  Not very honest of you, I must say.  Not very honest at all.



Mormons are Not born again and cannot be born again until they Renounce Joseph Smith & Mormonism
  Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, nothing more or less.  We should not renounce him any more than we should renounce Moses or Elijah or any of the other great prophets.



and reject the self righteous Work for Redemption that Mormonism teaches.
  .
  .
  .
Don't try to claim that you are a child of God, because the children of God do not Work to obtain Salvation the children of God already have Salvation.
  In the New testament, Jesus is quoted repeatedly as saying that we should keep his commandments.  In James 2:17, it is written that faith, without works, is dead.  For some reason, much of modern Christianity has ignored Jesus' charge to obey his commandments, and in fact, you are using the fact that we believe in obedience to these commandments as evidence that we are not Christian.  What is wrong with this picture?



Being Born Again is to be Spiritually born of God to become a child of God. This Only takes place because All Sins are forgiven in the Atonement Blood of Jesus. Mormons do not believe in the Complete Atonement of the Blood of Jesus.
  It is obvious that you do not know what Mormons believe.  You are either making this up, or you have foolishly taken the word of someone else who is speaking either out of ignorance or out of deliberate deception.  We most certainly do believe in the complete atonement in the blood of Jesus.  This is central to our faith, as to all other Christian faiths that I know of.  I suggest that rather than making an abject fool of yourself by trying to tell me what I do or do not believe, perhaps you should consider asking me what I believe.

Mormons are in a Cult following Cult practices as a Secret Cult Society and your sins are not forgiven. Mormons are still under sin, and cannot be born again.
  How fortunate for us that, when we reach the other side, it is Jesus Christ who we must face, and from whom we will receive judgement, rather than David A. Brown. 



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Edited 9/17/01 6:54:35 PM ET by BOB_BLAYLOCK 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/14/2001 9:16 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (13 of 69)  
 
  15.13 in reply to 15.5  
 
Bob, 
You are Totally Misrepresenting Mormonism to us! Im sure that you and other Mormons present this pretend picture of Mormonism to prospective converts then after they convert and are in Bondage to you, you present the true Dirty little secrets about your cult. 

You Do Not Believe in the Atonement of Jesus if you did you would not have instituted Mormon rules and rituals regarded to make up for what you think is Lacking in the Blood of Jesus. 

1) Being baptized Only in a Mormon Temple. 
2) Being married Only in a Mormon Temple. 
3) Having secret handshakes and secret symbols 
4) Wearing secret underwear 
5) Receiving a Secret new name from Mormons to Qualify you to enter into Heaven. 
6) You do Not believe in being Born Again if you did you wouldnt practice all this other stuff to try and Obtain righteousness. 

Christians who Do know Jesus will never fall for this Mormon bag of pretend righteousness. True Christians are Confident in one and only one thing. Jesus! 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/14/2001 1:20 pm  
To:  ALL   (14 of 69)  
 
  15.14 in reply to 15.13  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
You are Totally Misrepresenting Mormonism to us! Im sure that you and other Mormons present this pretend picture of Mormonism to prospective converts then after they convert and are in Bondage to you, you present the true Dirty little secrets about your cult.
  As a lifelong, practicing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I think I am clearly in a much better position than you to credibly state what this church does or does not believe.  It's fairly clear that you are either being deliberately dishonest and deceptive, or else that you have no first-hand knowledge of Mormonism, and are only repeating lies which have been told to you by others.  I'm a practicing member of this religion, I have participated in its ceremonies and oridinances, and I believe I have a fairly good understanding of their significance and meaning, as well as of the basic teachings and doctrines of this religion.  I have been trying to honestly and accurately represent these things to the best of my ability.  If you are going to make statements about our doctrine which contradict what I know first-hand, and if you are going to insist that my statements about what we believe are lies, then I don't really see what the point is in continuing this discussion.



You Do Not Believe in the Atonement of Jesus if you did you would not have instituted Mormon rules and rituals regarded to make up for what you think is Lacking in the Blood of Jesus
  .
  .
  .
Christians who Do know Jesus will never fall for this Mormon bag of pretend righteousness. True Christians are Confident in one and only one thing. Jesus!
  In a previous posting, you stated that we do not participate in the sacrament, the ritual eating of bread and drinking of wine, to symbolize the body and blood of Christ.  You were wrong in making this statement, of course, but assuming you are to have any consistency, it reveals that you believe this ritual, and the rules surrounding it, to be of importance.  I assume that, like most Christians, you also believe that one must be baptised.  Another rule and another ritual.  Clearly, you do believe that there are some rules and some rituals which are required of you.  Other than that we have a much more complete set of rules and rituals, how are we different than you in this regard?  If our rules and rituals demonstrate a lack of trust in Jesus Christ, then do not your rules and rituals demonstrate the same lack of trust?



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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/17/2001 2:28 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (15 of 69)  
 
  15.15 in reply to 15.14  
 
  I was hoping for a response to my previous posting.  So far, no response has been forthcoming.  If you are truly interested in the truth about Mormonism, then you should be interested in an open and honest discussion about it.  I think it's clear that a person who has first-hand knowledge and experience with Mormonism and its teachings, doctrines, and rituals, would be a vital participant in such a discussion.  I am such a person.  I've been in this religion all my life, I've been taught its doctrines, and I've participated in its most sacred rituals.  I know, first-hand, what is taught in this religion, and what our practices are.

  You accuse me of Totally Misrepresenting Mormonism to us!

  How can an honest and open discussion take place, when the only participants who have first-hand knowledge of the subject are not accepted as a credible source of information regarding the subject?

  If we are to carry out the discussion according to the rules you seem to have set up, then you can claim anything you want about Mormonism, no matter how outrageous, no matter how far-removed from any verifiable truth, and when I challenge your claims, you can dismiss me as a liar.  This is not a blueprint for an honest and productive discussion; this is a blueprint for a one-sided presentation of statements, which the person controlling the discussion is unwilling to subject to honest examination and debate.  I admit, now, that I was mistaken when I accused you of merely censoring my opposing view, but what you appear now to be doing isn't much better.  Again, you show an unwillingness to let your own claims stand up to honest debate, and as with the censorship, of which I had originally, and mistakenly accused you, this is a hallmark of a person who knows his statements are false, or at least who lacks confidence in their truth.



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  From:  BURRTON   5/17/2001 2:58 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (16 of 69)  
 
  15.16 in reply to 15.1  
 
Christianity is a cult too, so what's your problem? 
Are cults bad? I'm not Mormon, but from what I've seen, 
they appear to have common sense, no alcohol, or drugs. 
Are you condemning them for that? 
Is their Church getting too much attention? 
Is your Christian jealousy taking over? 
I know Christians live with the attitude that they 
are right and EVERYONE else is wrong. 
If it weren't for threats of Hell extortion and 
tax breaks, I doubt Chritianity would survive. 
It can't exsist on it's merits, as there are none. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/18/2001 8:09 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (17 of 69)  
 
  15.17 in reply to 15.5  
 
Bob,
You are still misusing the word Christian. The word Christian is a Born Again reference. If you would use the words the way they are written in the Bible, you would not be in a Cult. You have twisted and perverted the Truth of God into a Fable about gods and sex, and you and other Cults do such things by ignoring word meanings and inventing new meanings. I have learned many things in my recent dialogue with Mormons and the thing that I have learned the Most is that Mormons are Liars and cannot be trusted. You Constantly Lie about what Mormonism is and what your Beliefs are. You lie to deceive unknowing and unsuspecting people. 

John 4:25,26 The woman saith unto Him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when He is come He will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am He.

Christ is not a new term made for the followers of Jesus. Christ is the New Testament Greek equivalent of the Old Testament Hebrew word Messiah .

Messiah (O.T.) = Christ (N. T.) = Anointed, wet, Alive, Born Again

Messiah means to be Alive, wet, anointed with life. Bones/bodies that are Wet with Blood inside of them are Alive anointed bodies. Bodies/bones that do not have Wet, Blood, Anointing do not have life and are dead. No blood anointing  no physical life. People that are Un-Anointed Spiritually are dry/dead. When Jesus has anointed us (Born Again) we receive His Living Spirit and we become Living Children of God. No Spiritual Anointing  no Spiritual Life.

To be a Christian is to be Messiahed  to have received Life from the Messiah/Christ Jesus.

Mormons do not acknowledge Jesus as the Only and true Messiah and are in no way Born Again children of God.






David A. Brown
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/18/2001 1:35 pm  
To:  ALL   (18 of 69)  
 
  15.18 in reply to 15.17  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
You are still misusing the word Christian. The word Christian is a Born Again reference. If you would use the words the way they are written in the Bible
  Tell me, this:  Where, specifically, is the word Christian used in the bible, where it is made clear that it means anything more complex or narrow than a reference to one who follows Christ?  If you're going to make claims about how a word is used in the Bible, you should be able to cite references that show the word being used the way you say it is.  I've not been able to find anything in the Bible to support your claim here.



you would not be in a Cult.
  This leads to a rather different definition of the word cult than any with which I have been previously familiar.  So a cult is defined by misusing words?  If the Heaven's Gate bunch, for example, were to be very strict with regard to any word which was found in the Bible, to be sure that they used those words only in a manner consistent wth how they were used in the Bible, but if this group nevertheless, did not otherwise regard the Bible as meaningful in any way, and otherwise held the beliefs that they did, and the practices that they did, they would not have been a cult?



You have twisted and perverted the Truth of God into a Fable about gods and sex, and you and other Cults do such things by ignoring word meanings and inventing new meanings.
  I guess I can't say this in any way that doesn't sound flippant, but it really does appear to me that in this discussion, it is not I who is inventing new meanings for words, and using these new meanings to twist and pervert the truth.



I have learned many things in my recent dialogue with Mormons and the thing that I have learned the Most is that Mormons are Liars and cannot be trusted. You Constantly Lie about what Mormonism is and what your Beliefs are.
  It seems to me that in order to know whether something is a lie, you either need to know the truth, so that you can know a lie by its inconsistency with the truth, or else the lie must contain internal inconsistencies which prove that it cannot logically be true.  The question is, how do you know what, among anything that is said about Mormonism, about what its teachings and practices are, is truth, and what is a lie?  For me, this is easy.  Because I have first-hand experience with what is taught, and what is practiced, I can compare any statement that I hear or read with what I know first-hand.

  What experience or knowledge do you have that enables you to know what is true, and what isn't, about the teachings and practices of Mormonism?  Have you ever attended any LDS church meetings?  Have you read or viewed our instructional materials?

  I think your chain of logic is faulty.  I think that, at some point, someone told you, or else you read somewhere, some very nasty, and inaccurate things about Mormonism, and you accepted these as truth.  And when anyone who has first-hand knowledge of what we really teach, what we really believe, and what we really practice, tries to tell you the truth about these things, you reject it as false because it contradicts what you already know.  And of course, since we won't tell you what you know to be the truth, you assume that we are all liars and cannot be trusted.

  I would sure like to know what your original source of information is about Mormonism, that you think is a more credible and authoritative source on our beliefs and practices than the word of a real, live Mormon who has first-hand experience and knowledge of these beliefs and practices.  Care to tell us what this source is?

  Clearly, we need to establish what is an accurate and authoritative source on what Mormons really believe, what we are taught, and what practices we follow.  If you can't accept the word of of an actual Mormon regarding these things, then what source is there?  Who can say what I believe, if I cannot myself say it and be believed?



Mormons do not acknowledge Jesus as the Only and true Messiah
  Well, since we Mormons are all liars and cannot be trusted, according to you, I don't suppose it will do any good for me to tell you that yes, we most certainly do acknowledge Jesus as the Only and true Messiah.  In what other Messiahs do you think we believe?



and are in no way Born Again children of God.
  Fortunately, it will be Jesus, and not you, that will be making this judgement when we appear before him after we've left this life.  When I get there, I somehow do not expect to find you standing next to his right hand, and I do not expect to hear him say to you, I was going to judge this Mormon as being one of my own, but you're right.  Off to Hell he goes!



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/18/2001 10:46 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (19 of 69)  
 
  15.19 in reply to 15.18  
 
Bob are you a Born Again Mormon? 
Can any Mormon be Born Again here on earth in the physical body?



David A. Brown
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   From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/19/2001 12:05 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (20 of 69)  
 
  15.20 in reply to 15.19  
 
  It seems to me that we are up against a wall, of your making, and that there is little point in discussing anything about Mormon beliefs, teachings, or practices until we overcome this barrier.  It also seems that you have no interest in allowing this barrier to be overcome.  I must say again, that your conduct is hardly consistent with one who sincerely is interested in truth.  Let's revisit this statement of yours:
I have learned many things in my recent dialogue with Mormons and the thing that I have learned the Most is that Mormons are Liars and cannot be trusted. You Constantly Lie about what Mormonism is and what your Beliefs are.
  I have told you honestly what I, as a lifelong Mormon, have been taught, and what I, as a Mormon, believe.  Your response to this has been to call me a liar, and to paint my religion as some kind of sinister plot, straight out of the twisted imagination of the most deranged and delusional of conspiracy theorists, and to charcterize any statements from me or from any other Mormon as lies intended to cover up this conspiracy.

  This much should be obvious to anyone following this discussion:  You have been exposed to at least two different, contradictory sets of accounts of what the beliefs and teachings of Mormonism are.  One account comes from a person, or persons, who obviously depict Mormonism in a very dark and sinister way; the other comes from statements made by myself and other Mormons about what we believe.  For some reason, you have chosen to accept the former set as truth, and to reject the latter as lies, because they are not consistent with the former.

  Before there is any point in continuing to discuss what we Mormons do and do not believe, I really need to know what you regard as a credible source concerning Mormon teachings and beliefs, and why you consider this source more credible than the words of actual practicing Mormons.  To make it more personal, who do you consider more credible than me to tell you what I believe?

  If you are honest and sincere, and are interested in the truth, you will answer this.  If you just give me another bull[Clinton] response like the last one, then I will know that you have no interest in being honest or truthful, but only in promoting your own set of views about Mormonism without regard for whether or not there is any truth to them.



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From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/19/2001 9:37 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (21 of 69)  
 
  15.21 in reply to 15.5  
 
Bob, 
You continue to treat this forum with the Smoke and Mirrors of Mormonism. Christians can never trust the proclaimers of Mormonism because Mormonism is one shady murky indevour in which the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus plays no part. 

To become a Mormon or any Cult member first one has to accept the tales and misconceptions of the Cult. You have done just that! And now you are trying to sell us Mormon vapors. Christians will never replace the Substance and Truth of Jesus for the vapor of Mormonism. I encourage you and All Mormons to Reject the vapor of Joseph Smith and to Embrace the pure & true Substance of Jesus. 

I continue to ask the Question. Bob, are you a Born Again Mormon? And can a Mormon be Born Again in this physical body here on earth? 

Im sure that after your Delay Tactic, you are groping Mormon doctrine for an Excuse or a Fake notion of what Born Again is. But rest assured that this Forum will not allow you to Create New word definitions and you will be Held Accountable to Respond to the Biblical term of Born Again. 

I am Very Disappointed that you Chose to ignore my Question in the previous post asking if you are a Born Again Mormon. I, as a Christian consider this a Mocking of the Blood of Jesus which He shed, for us, that we sinners could become Born Again Christians into a relationship with Him. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum




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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/19/2001 2:13 pm  
To:  ALL   (22 of 69)  
 
  15.22 in reply to 15.21  
 
  To all who have been following this discussion, I think it should now be clear that this David (DAVIDABROWN) has no interest in truth.  Whether out of ignorance or folly, or whether out of deliberate and malicious intent, he seeks only to spread vicious and slanderous lies about other religions with which he disagrees, and to reject any attempt by those who have firsthand experience with these religions to tell the truth about their beliefs.  In Matthew 23:13-33, Mark 12:38-40, Luke 11:37-44, and Luke 20:46-47, Jesus condemns those hypocrites who, while making outward shows of piety and holiness, continue to engage in dishonest and unholy behavior.  Do Christ's warnings not apply here, very well, to David Brown?

  The truth about what Mormons really believe, and what we really teach, is freely available to anyone who seeks it.  There is no dark, sinister conspiracy.  Anyone is free to attend our Sunday meetings, and see for themselves what is taught at these meetings.

  I have spoken the truth about what I, as a Mormon, have been taught, and what I believe.  David's response has been to call me a liar, because what I say does not match the lies he has been spreading.  It is certainly clear that David, himself, has no real knowledge of what we Mormons believe or teach, for if he had, he would at least be able to come up with more believable lies.  (As I said in a much earlier posting, the very best lies have some basis in truth; this helps make them more easily believable.)

  Beware of the man who calls himself a Christian, but who has nothing to offer but deception and corruption.  Beware of David A. Brown.

  I see little point in my participating any further in this discussion.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/19/2001 3:15 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (23 of 69)  
 
  15.23 in reply to 15.22  
 
Bob, 
Your dilemma is that you are trying to defend the indefensible. Mormonism is a show and a put on. You dont have to scratch very far below the surface of Mormonism to see that it is Completely Lacking in substance. Mormonism is NOT Christianity NEVER was and NEVER will be. 

Its too bad that in the end you had to resort to name calling. 






David A. Brown
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/19/2001 6:28 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (24 of 69)  
 
  15.24 in reply to 15.23  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
Your dilemma is that you are trying to defend the indefensible.
  Of course it's indefensible, under the rules of this discussion, as you've set them up.  Anything I say in defense of my faith, anything I say about what I believe and what I have been taught, you simply dismiss as lies.  Nobody can defend anything effectively, when up against such rules.



Mormonism is a show and a put on. You dont have to scratch very far below the surface of Mormonism to see that it is Completely Lacking in substance.
  And how would you know this?  It's very clear that not only have you not scratch[ed] very far below the surface of Mormonism, but that you haven't even looked at the surface.  And it's also clear that you have no intention of doing so, that you are afraid of the possibility that you might find that what you've been saying about Mormonism isn't true.  You have chosen to remain comfortably ignorant, rather than risk knowledge.

  Here is a logical model of the discussion, as you've directed it:
Bob:  Grass is green.

David:  Bob is a liar because he says that grass is orange.

Bob:  I didn't say that grass is orange.  I have never said that grass is orange.  I know that grass is green, and this is the only color that I've ever said grass to be.

David:  You cannot trust Bob, because he will never tell you the truth about what color he believes grass to be.  He may say that he thinks grass is green, but this is only a lie to cover up his dirty secret, which is that he believes that grass is orange.  He'll only tell you what he really thinks once he has you in bondage to him, and can keep you from ever being able to tell anyone else the truth about what he says.
  Perhaps, reading this model, the absurdity of yourposition will become clear to you.  You are attributing false beliefs to me and to other Mormons, and then rejecting any efforts by me to tell you what I really believe.  If you truly believe that I am lying when I tell you that I believe something, then you could present some source which contradicts what I am saying, and explain why you think this source is more credible than I am regarding what I believe.  But this is something that an honest and intelligent debater, who has some confidence in the truth of his own position, would do, and I think you've made it very clear, already, that you most certainly do not fit this category.

  You have no confidence in the truth of your own position, perhaps you even know that your own position is false.  This is why you are afraid to allow an honest examination of your position.



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  From:  Paul (WOEFULHC)   5/26/2001 10:05 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (25 of 69)  
 
  15.25 in reply to 15.23  
 
David, 
If you change the rules and topic of debate without explicitly stating the new rules, you are guaranteed a "win." It is also at least disengenous if not dishonest. I've had similar discussions countless times. They follow the route this one took about half the time. The other half of the time, both sides work at understanding what the other is saying. This second category does not always end up with 100% agreement, but does end with both sides knowing where the other stands and perhaps why. 

My current reply to the assertion that I am not Christian is to ask by what definition. I don't care what definition you use. I do care that it be both explicit, and applied equally. By aplied equally I mean that if your definition excludes Mormons from christianity for having practices plural marriage (because such practices are sinful and obviusly not Christian), you must also exclude Martin Luther, who counseled a friend that having two wives was better than living in sin or lusting after a woman. If you exclude us for vicarios work for the dead, you must do so for early Christians who also "baptized for the dead" as mentioned in the Bible and in early edicts from the Catholic church. If you exclude us for believing Christ at his word that "all that the Father hath shall be ours" them you must also exclude Clive Staples (C. S.) Lewis, and several of the early Christian fathers. 

My question to you is are you willing to apply the same definition across the board? Can you bear to look at all who claim to be Christian with exactly the same criteria? 



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Edited 5/27/2001 1:25:34 AM ET by WOEFULHC 

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Edited 5/27/2001 1:27:32 AM ET by WOEFULHC 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/27/2001 7:27 am  
To:  Paul (WOEFULHC)   (26 of 69)  
 
  15.26 in reply to 15.25  
 
This Thread already has discussion on who is a Christian please go back and read or re-read post #17. Also the thread End Times has an extensive definition of the Church and Christianity.



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/27/2001 1:50 pm  
To:  ALL   (27 of 69)  
 
  15.27 in reply to 15.26  
 
Here is the article I was refrencing
End Times 
I think that in end time discussion what is of first and foremost importance is to define the Christian Church. The church has a beginning and it also has an end. It is the end of the church here on earth that is always a difficult idea to grasp. We as Christians often get so Church centered that we tend to think that what we call the Church has always existed and will always exist. Not so, Noah, Abraham, Moses, King David, even John the Baptist are all loved by God and are with God in heaven right now, yet not one of them was ever a Christian.

The Christian church as we know it began at a specific moment on a specific day. The day is the Sunday that Jesus Resurrected from death. The Church Still commemorates the Resurrection of Jesus and the beginning of the church by meeting/assembling on Sunday. The church is not a collection of buildings or the names of denominations. The church consists of people. People are the Church. The exact moment people became the Church was on Resurrection Sunday when Jesus Breathed/Baptized the people gathered in the upper room and told them to receive ye the Holy Ghost this is the Born Again occurrence of a Christian. Notice Jesus said to receive this, after we as individuals acknowledge by faith the Resurrection of Jesus, Jesus then Personally Breathes the Holy Spirit into us. We do not feel or experience anything at this Baptism, we are saved by Faith not by experiences. Later when we have additional over flowing baptisms of the Holy Spirit and of Fire, theses are experiences that we experience. On resurrection Sunday no-one spoke in tongues. Later at the Experience of Pentecost baptism the experience of speaking in tongues occurred.

John 20:22 And when He (Jesus) had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

The church consists Only of Born Again Christian believers. Everyone who Acknowledges that Jesus is Alive and has received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit from Jesus by Faith is a Born Again Christian and a member of the Church in which Jesus is the Authority. This is very Important and very significant. God created mankind Adam and Eve in a sinless condition both of them disobeyed God and ate of the fruit. To disobey God is sin and sin is death (separation from God). To be Born Again is to Have Gods Spirit back inside of us the way God originally intended mankind to be. Those with the Spirit of God are in the family of God as Children of God. Those who do not acknowledge the resurrection of Jesus are not, born again and are not Children of God.

The Church consists of all the children of God. The world consists of all the non-children of God.

Being a child of God means that we are in the Spiritual Image of God, We have Received from God His Spirit. This has happened because we acknowledge that we are sinners and that Jesus died for our sins. Sin is no longer an issue, as long as Jesus is acknowledged. The children of God are cleansed by the blood of Jesus from sin. The people of the world are still dirty in the eyes of God, having rejecting Jesus.

This is where end times can get confusing. God is going to Judge the earth and the people that are on it, this is Gods desire,wrath. Wrath means passionate desire. It is Gods passion to Judge the earth. Judge means to make a distinction and a separation, like right from wrong or light from darkness. Here is the interesting part God is going to judge the world yet there is this group of Gods Children currently still on the earth, they are called Christians. God does not have wrath for Christians because they already acknowledge Him, we are His children. God is going to remove His children from the earth prior to judging the earth. This is an event called the Rapture of the church. This is the end of the Church here on earth. The church of Born again believers that began on resurrection Sunday 2,000 years ago will be transferred to heaven, before God Judges the earth.

1 Thessalonians 1:9,10 For they themselves (new Christians) show of us what manner of entering in (visiting) we had unto you, and how ye turned from idols (worldly desires) to serve the living and true God; And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered (on the Cross) us from the wrath to come.

Next Article: will go into detail about the coming rapture of the Church.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  WendyJM1    5/28/2001 12:33 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (28 of 69)  
 
  15.28 in reply to 15.12  
 
Bob ... what is clearly interesting in the case of Joseph Smith's 'vision' he had in the woods that fateful day (and being spoken to by an "angel from heaven")- is that he was given what he claims to be a revelation to HIM ALONE from God. He also said in his own writings from that time that ALL OTHER CHURCHES (other than what Joseph Smith taught) WERE AN ABOMINATION. This is important because nowadays the LDS people I'm involved with will claim that this is "not" so... if you would like I will find exactly where Joseph Smith wrote it - i have most of his and other LDS writers' writings. 
Because Joseph Smith also claimed that at the JUDGMENT BAR one day when each person dies that they will come before Jesus "AND" Joseph Smith, etc. it is important to understand that according to the Word of God alone (not including your additional LDS books)this is considered 'another Gospel'... 

In the book of Galatians Paul dealt with this ... when he says: 

"... BUT THOUGH WE, OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL UNTO YOU THAN THAT WHICH WE HAVE PREACHED UNTO YOU, LET HIM BE ACCURSED. AS WE SAID BEFORE, SO SAY I NOW AGAIN, IF ANY MAN PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL UNTO YOU THAN THAT YE HAVE RECEIVED, LET HIM BE ACCURSED". 

It is VITAL to know exactly from the Word of God ALONE exactly what that "Gospel" is... JESUS CHRIST ALONE. HE IS GOD. There are no 'hangers' on like Joseph Smith or any other so-called "Apostle" who is the "author" of our Salvation ("too") - only JESUS CHRIST - the SON OF GOD. 

Wendy 
www.delphi.com/realife1/start 




 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/28/2001 5:45 pm  
To:  ALL   (29 of 69)  
 
  15.29 in reply to 15.2  
 
Here are some links to other forums where this same Article was vigorously debated. 
LDS Mormon Apologetics 

Keep on Praising Jesus 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum



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Edited 2/21/2002 9:51:09 PM ET by David  
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/30/2001 1:40 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (30 of 69)  
 
  15.30 in reply to 15.27  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN), apparently quoting something written by some unnamed author, defines Christianity thusly:
The church consists Only of Born Again Christian believers. Everyone who Acknowledges that Jesus is Alive and has received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit from Jesus by Faith is a Born Again Christian and a member of the Church in which Jesus is the Authority.
  .
  .
  .
Those who do not acknowledge the resurrection of Jesus are not, born again and are not Children of God.
  By this definition, then, you must acknowledge that Mormons are Christians.  We acknowledge that Jesus Christ is alive; we acknowledge the truth of his resurrection, we have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and are members of a church where Jesus is the authority.  Any Mormon that you ask will acknowledge these facts.  Every Mormon is taught these things, and every faithful Mormon believes these things.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/30/2001 2:06 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (31 of 69)  
 
  15.31 in reply to 15.30  
 
Bob, 
That is my writing as I claim it to be. If there was anther source I would refrence the origanal source. Like I did in the beginning with the Christian Times article. 

The fact is Mormons have Rejected Jesus and are living a Lie! 

Mormons are not born again. Mormons do Not have the Assurance of Salvation that Christians have. Even according to Mormon doctrine a Practicing Mormon has No Idea if they are correctly following Mormon doctrine nor what the end result of their Mormon Belief is. 






David A. Brown
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/30/2001 4:54 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (32 of 69)  
 
  15.32 in reply to 15.31  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
That is my writing as I claim it to be. If there was anther source I would refrence the origanal (sic) source. Like I did in the beginning with the Christian Times article.
  My mistake.  I got the impression you were quoting someone else, but could not tell who I thought you were quoting.



The fact is Mormons have Rejected Jesus and are living a Lie!

Mormons are not born again. Mormons do Not have the Assurance of Salvation that Christians have. Even according to Mormon doctrine a Practicing Mormon has No Idea if they are correctly following Mormon doctrine nor what the end result of their Mormon Belief is.
  You continue to make statements about what Mormons believe, which do m\not match my first-hand experience, nor that of other Mormons, and you have so far refused to cite yoru source for your claims about our beliefs.  The truth is this:  I do not believe what you claim that I believe.  I have not been taught what you claim that I have been taught.  And neither does or has any other Mormon.  The statements you have made about what Mormons are taught, and what we believe, have never been true.  They are lies which you are spreading, either out of malicious dishonesty, or else out of foolish ignorance.  And it is only on the basis of these lies that you deny that we are Christians  that you deny that we meet the definition of Christian which you have just posted.

  The truth is that we Mormons, every one of us, have been taught, and we believe that
Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God.
Jesus Christ suffered and died to pay the price for all of our sins.
It is only through Jesus' sacrifice that we may return to the presence of our Father in Heaven, and receive eternal life.
Jesus Christ is the one true head of our church.
It is required of us that we be baptized, by immersion, for the remission of our sins, and in order to receive the Holy Ghost.
  This meets your definition of Christianity.  You can only deny that we meet this defintion by lying about what we believe.

  I ask all readers to consider these questions:  Who is the ultimate authority on what you believe?  Who is the most qualified person of all to say what it is that you believe?  Is it not you?  Do you not know better than anyone else what it is that you believe?  If you think you believe X, and someone else tells you, No, you don't believe X; you believe Y., is that person telling the truth?  Of course not.  You know what you believe, and if someone else tells you differently, then you know that that other person is wrong.

  I know what I believe.  I know what I have been taught, and I know what my experiences have been.  Repeatedly, I have posted here that I believe X, and David A. Brown has responded by saying that no, I do not believe X; I believe Y.  David A. Brown is wrong.  David A. Brown is not qualified to tell you what I believe.  Only I am qualified to tell you that, and that is what I have done.

  The things that I believe, and which are believed by all Mormons, qualify me as a Christian, by the very defintion that David A. Brown himself posted.  David A. Brown will tell you that I am not a Christian, and the only way he can support this claim is to tell you that I do not believe what I say I believe.  Again, I say that David A. Brown is not qualified to state my beliefs, and only a gullible fool would trust him over me to tell you what it is that I believe.



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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/30/2001 5:06 pm  
To:  WendyJM1    (33 of 69)  
 
  15.33 in reply to 15.28  
 
Wendy (WENDYJM1) wrote
Bob ... what is clearly interesting in the case of Joseph Smith's 'vision' he had in the woods that fateful day (and being spoken to by an "angel from heaven")- is that he was given what he claims to be a revelation to HIM ALONE from God. He also said in his own writings from that time that ALL OTHER CHURCHES (other than what Joseph Smith taught) WERE AN ABOMINATION. This is important because nowadays the LDS people I'm involved with will claim that this is "not" so... if you would like I will find exactly where Joseph Smith wrote it - i have most of his and other LDS writers' writings.
  This story is part of our scripture, and part of our doctrine, though your retelling of it is badly flawed.  Other than to correct a few errors in the version which you tell (i.e.  It was God the Father, and Jesus Christ, who visited Joseph Smith on this occasion, and not merely an angel.) I doubt if you are finding very many Mormons who say, of this story, that it is not so.



Because Joseph Smith also claimed that at the JUDGMENT BAR one day when each person dies that they will come before Jesus "AND" Joseph Smith
  Joseph Smith never claimed this, nor is this anything that is widely believed or taught among Mormons.  Joseph Smith was not a savior or a messiah, nor will it be his role to stand in judgement of us all alongside Jesus Christ.  He was a prophet of God  nothing more or less.



it is important to understand that according to the Word of God alone (not including your additional LDS books)this is considered 'another Gospel'...
  What is considered another gospel?  The doctrine that Joseph Smith will share with Jesus in the role of judging us?  As I have already said, we don't believe this, so your attacks based on this belief are meaningless.  The word of God is what it is, having been received and recorded by his prophets.  This is how the collection of writings which we now know as The Holy Bible came to be, and it is, we believe, how our additional scriptures came to be.



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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    5/30/2001 5:40 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (34 of 69)  
 
  15.34 in reply to 15.11  
 
Arggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg!!! YOU ENJOY Haranguing anyone whose beliefs are NOT YOURS I bet you are a HARDSHELL SOUTHERN BAPTIST who follows RUSH on his rounds!!!! 



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  From:  WendyJM1    5/30/2001 5:44 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (35 of 69)  
 
  15.35 in reply to 15.33  
 
Consider these words from President Brigham Young concerning Joseph Smith, found in J0URNAL OF DISCOURSES Volume 7, page 289: 
"Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days". 

ALSO: "...namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are - I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keps of that kingdom for the last dispensation- " 

IN CASE YOU MIGHT THINK THAT THIS IS AN ISOLATED COMMENT, CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING FROM JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES VOLUME 8, Page 224: 

"...As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Jun. Who has made this so? Have I? Have this people? Have the world? No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it. 

If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph. If you evere pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon His certificate that you are worthy to pass. Can you pass without his inspection? No; neither can any person in this dispensation, and in all the generations that are to come, every one will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet". 

REMEMBER, THESE ARE THE WORDS OF PRESIDENT BRIGHAM YOUNG, IN GREAT SALT LAKE CITY, ON OCT. 21, 1860 AND AT THE BEGINNING OF THE ABOVE QUOTE HE MADE THE COMMENT: "...As I have FREQUENTLY told them..." 

NOT OCCASIONALLY, NOR MISTAKENLY TOLD THEM, BUT "FREQUENTLY". 

IT IS IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER THE IMPORTANCE OF THESE QUOTATIONS. THEY ARE THE WORDS OF THE PRESIDENT BRIGHAM YOUNG. SURELY, HE WOULD BE A RELIABLE SOURCE FROM WHICH TO QUOTE? IF THESE ARE NOT ACCURATE TEACHINGS THEN THEY MUST BE CONSIDERED 'FALSE TEACHINGS' AND SO THEN WHO IS ONE TO BELIEVE? WE WOULD HAVE TO ASK THE MORMON PEOPLE IS THIS IS TRUE TEACHING OR FALSE TEACHING? 

IF IT IS TRUE THEN JESUS CHRIST IS NOT THEIR SAVIOR ALONE. IF IS A FALSE TEACHING, THEN WOULD NOT THAT MAKE PRESIDENT BRIGHAM YOUNG A FALSE PROPHET OR AT LEAST A FALSE TEACHER? AFTER ALL, BRIGHAM YOUNG SAID THAT: 

"...The Lord Jehovah has decreed it". 

WHO THEN BECOMES THEIR SAVIOR? JESUS? JOSEPH? both? 

WE DO NOT NEED THE 'CERTIFICATE' OR 'APPROVAL' OF ANY MAN SUCH AS JOSEPH SMITH - BUT WE DO NEED TO 'BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST' - ROMANS 10:9 TELLS US: 

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" 

True Christians agree that the gospel that Paul declared according to 1Cor.15:1-4 is that Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures: We understand the Bible to teach that we must receive Jesus Christ into our lives as our personal Savior (John 1:12) and if we ask, and receive Christ, then He dwells in us. 2Cor.13:5: 

"EXAMINE YOURSELVES, WHETHER YE BE IN THE FAITH; PROVE YOUR OWN SELVES. KNOW YE NOT YOUR OWN SELVES, HOW THAT JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU, EXCEPT YE BE REPROBATES?" 

WELL, WE DON'T WANT TO BE A REPROBATE, DO WE? 

WENDY 




 
  
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    5/30/2001 6:16 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (36 of 69)  
 
  15.36 in reply to 15.22  
 
Amen and so mote it be! 



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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/30/2001 8:07 pm  
To:  WendyJM1    (37 of 69)  
 
  15.37 in reply to 15.35  
 
Wendy (WENDYJM1) wrote
Consider these words from President Brigham Young concerning Joseph Smith, found in J0URNAL OF DISCOURSES Volume 7, page 289:
"Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days". 
  .
  .
  .
"...namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are - I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keps of that kingdom for the last dispensation- "
  .
  .
  .
"...As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Jun. Who has made this so? Have I? Have this people? Have the world? No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.
If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph. If you evere pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon His certificate that you are worthy to pass. Can you pass without his inspection? No; neither can any person in this dispensation, and in all the generations that are to come, every one will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet".
REMEMBER, THESE ARE THE WORDS OF PRESIDENT BRIGHAM YOUNG, IN GREAT SALT LAKE CITY, ON OCT. 21, 1860 AND AT THE BEGINNING OF THE ABOVE QUOTE HE MADE THE COMMENT: "...As I have FREQUENTLY told them..."

NOT OCCASIONALLY, NOR MISTAKENLY TOLD THEM, BUT "FREQUENTLY". 
  The Journal of Discourses has never been regarded as a very reliable record of what Brigham Young said.  They were written by a man who thought it was a good idea to record Young's speeches and sermons, but who did not engage in any direct dialog with Young, and most importantly, did not interact with Young in order to make sure that what he was writing down was really what Young had said or meant.  Much of it was reconstructed from this writer's memory later, rather than being written as the speeches were delivered.  I should point out that in a court of law, the entire contents of the Journal of Discourses would not be admissible as evidence; it would be rejected as hearsay. 

  If the Journal of Discourses is to be believed, Brigham Young had a habit of speaking carelessly at times, saying things which made little sense when compared with things he had said at other times, and with respect to LDS doctrines which were well-established by that time.  It's possible that Young really did speak so carelessly; though he was a prophet, and spoke for God, he was also a man who was entirely free to form and express thoughts and opinions of his own, and not every word from his mouth was dictated by God.  In many instances, we simply cannot know what he really said, and what he really meant by them; we can only know what the man who wrote the Discourses thought he heard Young say.

  Now, all that said, if we assume that the Journal of Discourses accurately recorded this particular speech, and if we assume that Young was speaking, as a prophet, then you're still left with a big problem in trying to support your point here.  You've only quoted part of Young's statement, which gives one impression, while leaving out another part, which puts a very different meaning to it.

  I note that in your previous message, you wrote that Joseph Smith had claimed for himself that he would share the judgement role with Christ.  When challenged on this point, you produced not anything from Smith to support this claim, but a questionable quote from his successor, Brigham Young, taken out of context, to support this claim.  Do you, in fact, have anything which appears to quote Joseph Smith himself as making this claim?

  And as a final point, while I agree with you, (as do nearly all Mormons) that it is Jesus Christ himself, and nobody else, who will pass final judgement on us, a popular traditional view among Christianity attributes this role to Peter.  Many people expect, when they get to the other side, to find thsemlves before the pearly gates, guarded by St. Peter, who will either let them pass, or cast them down to Hell.  Are these people not Christians?



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  From:  WendyJM1    5/30/2001 8:40 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (38 of 69)  
 
  15.38 in reply to 15.37  
 
BY THE 'STANDARD WORKS OF THE MORMON CHURCH'... I REFER TO THE FOUR VOLUMES WHICH THEY CONSIDER 'SCRIPTURE' 
BEING THE KING JAMES VERSION OF THE BIBLE, THE BOOK OF MORMON, DOCTRINE & COVENANTS, AND THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE. THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE BIBLE IS SAID THOUGH BY THE LDS CHURCH TO BE: 'TRUE ONLY AS FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY', ACCORDING TO THEIR ARTICLES OF FAITH, THE OTHER THREE BOOKS ARE CONSIDERED SCRIPTURE WITHOUT QUALIFICATION. 

FOR YOU TO CHOOSE 'WHICH' PROPHET YOU AGREE WITH OR NOT IS CERTAINLY A 'STRANGE' FORM OF A BELIEF SYSTEM. 

THERE REALLY IS NOT 'ANOTHER' GOSPEL OR 'ANOTHER' GOD OR 'ANOTHER' JESUS. THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD AND ONE TRUE GOSPEL. THERE IS ONLY ONE SAVIOR AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST. WE MUST LINE OURSELVES UP WITH THE WORD OF GOD AND NOT WITH THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF MEN, IN ORDER TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 

THINK FOR A MOMENT AT THIS POINT. THE MORMON 'JESUS' REALLY DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. WE DO NOT HAVE THE OPTION OF CHOOSING A 'JESUS' AND HOPEFULLY THE ETERNITY THAT PARTICULAR 'JESUS' MIGHT OFFER, ACCORDING TO THE GROUP THAT FOLLOWS 'HIM'. THERE IS NOT A 'MORMON JESUS' AND A 'JEHOVAH'S WITNESS JESUS' AND A 'NEW AGE JESUS'. THERE IS ONLY THE ONE TRUE JESUS CHRIST AND ALL 'OTHERS' ARE FIGMENTS OF MAN'S IMAGINATIONS. 

IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THESE WORDS OF Galatians 1:8: 

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed". 

WE WILL SPEND ETERNITY WHERE THE BIBLE STATES THAT WE WILL SPEND ETERNITY. NOT IN SOME 'CELESTIAL KINGDOM' AS THE MORMONS HOPE, OR 'FOREVER IN PARADISE ON EARTH' AS THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES THINK. THERE ARE "not" SEVERAL OPTIONS AND YOU DON'T GET TO PICK THE ONE YOU LIKE THE BEST,... Matt 25:46: 

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous unto life eternal". 

THIS SCRIPTURE CLEARLY SHOWS TWO DESTINATIONS FOR MANKIND 'EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT' FOR THE WICKED, AND 'LIFE ETERNAL' FOR THE RIGHTEOUS. 

ACCORDING TO THE "HISTORY OF THE CHURCH", Volume 6, page 306, 1978 edition, President Joseph Smith taught that: 

"...they shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory,..." 

'EVERLASTING BURNINGS'? WHAT A DESTINATION TO OFFER FOLLOWERS! THE MORMON PEOPLE SHOULD ALSO SERIOUSLY CONSIDER THESE WORDS OF THEIR PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH. ACCORDING TO THE WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST, THOSE WHO WOULD SPEND ETERNITY IN 'EVERLASTING BURNINGS' WERE THE UNRIGHTEOUS AND NOT THE RIGHTEOUS. ONE REFERENCE WOULD BE MARK 9:43. THE HOPE OF CHRISTIANS IS TO SPEND ETERNITY IN HEAVEN WITH CHRIST, NOT TO DWELL IN 'EVERLASTING BURNINGS'. 'EVERLASTING BURNINGS' DOESN'T SOUND LIKE IMMORTAL GLORY TO ME. 

AND.... BY THE WAY... these words from Journal of Discourses, Vol.8 that I quoted last time are very clear: "...(Brigham Young speaking)... If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the ounsent of the Prophet Joseph. If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass..."etc. 

THIS ABOVE QUOTE IS VERY CLEAR WHAT HE MEANS - AND I WILL NOT ENTER INTO ENDLESS GENEALOGIES WITH YOU REGARDING THE ABOVE QUOTE OR WHAT SOME 'GROUP' OF 'SO-CALLED' CHRISTIANS MIGHT SAY ABOUT 'PETER' BEING AT THE DOOR OF HEAVEN - THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES. 

wendy 

THAT IS WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO TRUST IN THE ONE TRUE JESUS CHRIST AS SAVIOR AND LORD. 

WE MUST BELIEVE AND KNOW THE GOSPEL THAT PAUL PREACHED, NOT 'ANOTHER' GOSPEL. 




 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/30/2001 8:58 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (39 of 69)  
 
  15.39 in reply to 15.38  
 
Wendy has done an excellent job of continuing to lay out the fallacy of Mormonism. Mormonism is just such a twisted tail that no-one should be believing it. And we all hope that you will abandon the false hope of this Mormon story and Embrace Jesus. 
Once you embrace Jesus of Nazareth the one who walked in Judea 2,000 years ago then you will have life and then you will know why we Christians will never give up what we have. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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   From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   5/30/2001 11:34 pm  
To:  WendyJM1    (40 of 69)  
 
  15.40 in reply to 15.38  
 
Wendy (WENDYJM1) wrote:
BY THE 'STANDARD WORKS OF THE MORMON CHURCH'... I REFER TO THE FOUR VOLUMES WHICH THEY CONSIDER 'SCRIPTURE' BEING THE KING JAMES VERSION OF THE BIBLE, THE BOOK OF MORMON, DOCTRINE & COVENANTS, AND THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE. THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE BIBLE IS SAID THOUGH BY THE LDS CHURCH TO BE: 'TRUE ONLY AS FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY', ACCORDING TO THEIR ARTICLES OF FAITH, THE OTHER THREE BOOKS ARE CONSIDERED SCRIPTURE WITHOUT QUALIFICATION.
  The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and The Peal of Great Price come to us through the direct work of a prophet.  As we now have it, The Holy Bible is the product of centuries of editing, copying and recopying, translating from language to language, and other manipulations, by men acting without divine guidance.  The phrase as far as it is translated correctly merely acknowledges the undeniable fact that errors have been introduced into the Bible as a result of these centuries of uninspired manipulation.  Here's a simple example.  Look up Genesis 37:3, and tell me what was distinctive about the coat which Jacob gave to his son, Joseph. If you are reading the King James version, you will see a translation based on the literal meaning of a Hebrew idiom, rather than the real meaning which the original writer meant by that idiom.  This is an example of a bit of The Bible that was not translated correctly, and it would be silly, knowing that this error exists, to treat this incorrect meaning as scriptural.  (It does make for a very entertaining play, however.)

  We also consider much of the words of our modern prophets to be scripture.  But there is a process involved in recording these words, and checking them with the prophet in question to make sure that what is written is what the prophet really said, and what he really meant.  Once the records have been made, properly checked , and published, they are part of our scripture.  Since you've already quoted The Journal of Discourses at me, and are about to do so again, I will point out again, that this is not considered part of our scripture.  None of its content was ever checked with the prophet to verify its accuracy, and consistency with what the prophet said or meant.  It is not a record of what Brigham Young said; it is only a record of what someone thought he heard Brigham Young say.



THINK FOR A MOMENT AT THIS POINT. THE MORMON 'JESUS' REALLY DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. WE DO NOT HAVE THE OPTION OF CHOOSING A 'JESUS' AND HOPEFULLY THE ETERNITY THAT PARTICULAR 'JESUS' MIGHT OFFER, ACCORDING TO THE GROUP THAT FOLLOWS 'HIM'. THERE IS NOT A 'MORMON JESUS' AND A 'JEHOVAH'S WITNESS JESUS' AND A 'NEW AGE JESUS'. THERE IS ONLY THE ONE TRUE JESUS CHRIST AND ALL 'OTHERS' ARE FIGMENTS OF MAN'S IMAGINATIONS.
  Now you're just being silly.  There is only one Jesus Christ.  You make it sound like we made up some fictional character, having nothing to do with the real Jesus, named this fictional character Jesus Christ, and worship him in place of the real Jesus.  This is nonsense.  Though we may disagree on some points about his nature, the Jesus that you worship is the very same person as the Jesus that we worship.  He is the literal son of God, who was born in Bethlehem, of Mary who was a virgin, who suffered and died to pay the price for all of our sins, and who was resurrected three days later.



WE WILL SPEND ETERNITY WHERE THE BIBLE STATES THAT WE WILL SPEND ETERNITY. NOT IN SOME 'CELESTIAL KINGDOM' AS THE MORMONS HOPE, OR 'FOREVER IN PARADISE ON EARTH' AS THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES THINK. THERE ARE "not" SEVERAL OPTIONS AND YOU DON'T GET TO PICK THE ONE YOU LIKE THE BEST,... Matt 25:46:
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous unto life eternal".
THIS SCRIPTURE CLEARLY SHOWS TWO DESTINATIONS FOR MANKIND 'EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT' FOR THE WICKED, AND 'LIFE ETERNAL' FOR THE RIGHTEOUS.
  I don't think it so clearly shows that at all.  Clearly, there is everlasing life as one possible outcome, and everlasting punishment as another.  Nothing here says that there isn't some other possible outcome than these two, nor that there are not multiple possibilities within each of these two.  Take a look at 1 Corinthians 15:40-41.  This suggests that somewhere in the great scheme of things, there are three levels withinsomething; it's not clear within what.  In 2 Corinthians 12:2, there is a reference to a third heaven, suggesting that there are at least three different heavens, or at least three distinct divisions within heaven.



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Edited 6/13/2001 7:03:03 PM ET by BOB_BLAYLOCK 
  
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From:  Wyild   6/1/2001 8:14 pm  
To:  ALL   (41 of 69)  
 
  15.41 in reply to 15.40  
 
Listen, you ijits- And I'm referring to those of you who think every religion EXCEPT YOURS is a cult. Idiots! 
A cult by definition is a group of people who blindly follow one leader. (Technically, if I were to take YOUR standpoint on it, I would be targeting CHRISTIANS a -cult- for following JESUS... I certainly do not believe that, but, there it is for ya, anyways.) Since people are free to chose their religion, and humans tend to be free-thinkers, I doubt that Mormons, Wiccans, Baptists or anybody else are cultists... Those are BIG religions, they're not following THE leader... Thus they cannot be classified as a cult. They are practicing what they themselves, as individuals believe in. And it just so happens to be different from what YOU beleive in! 

*OOOOOH NOOOOO! DIVERSITY! WHATEVER WILL WE DO!? CULT CULT CUUUUUULT!** 

Well DUH. I thoguht we learned the 'everybody is special in their OWN way' spiel back in second grade... 

"To judge a person as either "good" or "bad" based upon nothing more than their religious preference alone has a label, too. It is called bigotry." SO, you morons, quit targeting other people! 

And yes, I use the terms, 'moron' and 'ijit' liberally, and without regret! And, just so you all know, and get annoyed... This whole topic, to me, is absolutely revoltng, in a pathetic, HILLARIOUS way... And I laughed uproarisly the whole time I was reading it! :D
 
  
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  From:  M_DAuvergne   6/10/2001 5:54 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (43 of 69)  
 
  15.43 in reply to 15.1  
 
What are your goals? What do you hope to accomplish?! 
I see, sir, that you have a hard time with logic....I will help you with this.... 

OK, a christian is someone who believes in Christ and puts all their energy into him and puts christ first and all that good stuf... 

Secondly, the mormons believe in christ. 

So the mormons are christian by definiton!! 

Oh, and before you start throwing daggers, I am not mormon. I'm not even christian. So don't try to use scripture and stuff like that, it makes no sense to anybody and it will never get your point across.. 

Such venom pointed in this direction....so pointless...

Je te remercie! 

~M. D'Auvergne
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/10/2001 6:15 pm  
To:  M_DAuvergne   (44 of 69)  
 
  15.44 in reply to 15.43  
 
Christians Worship Jesus Christ! 
Mormons worship a different jesus then the Christians do: 

Logically this would make Mormons Non-Christians. 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/10/2001 8:24 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (45 of 69)  
 
  15.45 in reply to 15.44  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) lied:
Christians Worship Jesus Christ!

Mormons worship a different jesus then the Christians do:
  The Jesus which we worship is that man who was born in Bethlehem of Mary who was a virgin, who lived in Nazareth, who was put to death by crucifixion, and who was resurrected three days later.  He was the literal Son of God, and in his suffering and death, he paid the price for all of our sins.  He taught many great things, and performed many great miracles.  He is the legitimate head of our Church, and it is only through him that we may gain Eternal Life, and return to the presence of our Heavenly Father.  This is the Jesus which we Mormons worship.  This is the Christian Jesus.  If this is not the same Jesus that you worship, then it is you, and not us, whose status as a Christian is in doubt.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/10/2001 9:52 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (46 of 69)  
 
  15.46 in reply to 15.45  
 
The Jesus Christ that Christians Worship is the only Son of God. 
Jesus Christ is God! 
If you worshiped this Jesus you would be "Born Again" and you would scrap your phony temples and silly secret rituals.




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  DJ Sterf (djsterf)   6/10/2001 10:29 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (47 of 69)  
 
  15.47 in reply to 15.1  
 
Wow...They really are considering dropping the LDS? I think they should drop the 'Jesus Christ' and 'Saints' and be called what they more of are, "The Church of Latter Day." Either that or they could put a 'Fake' before Church. I'm very sure that Mormonism is a cult. God bless and I DO agree strongly with you. 
- DJ Sterf


 
Click to Visit DJ Sterf.Com
Make Money While Surfing the Internet or Reading E-Mail!!! 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/11/2001 12:06 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (48 of 69)  
 
  15.48 in reply to 15.46  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote
The Jesus Christ that Christians Worship is the only Son of God.
Jesus Christ is God!
  This is the same Jesus that we worship.  In all your efforts to assert otherwise, you've never identified who this other Jesus is that you claim that we worship.



If you worshiped this Jesus you would be "Born Again" and you would scrap your phony temples and silly secret rituals.
  This doesn't follow.  We do worship Jesus, and our Temples and our ceremonies conducted therein are an integral part of this worship.  As a matter of fact, just yesterday (or two days ago, depending on whether I finish this message and get it posted before midnight), my wife and I travelled 150 miles to the nearest Temple, and participated in one of our most sacred of ceremonies.  To us, this Temple is anything but phony and the rituals in which we've participated therein are anything but silly.  Your characterization of them as such says nothing, really, of these sacred things, but is merely a reflection of your own ignorance and thoughtlessness.

  A certain amount of ignorance is understandable and forgivable.  But persistent, deliberate ignorance, such as yours, is another matter.  You've persisted in stating things about my religion which are not true, and which, by now, you should have discovered for yourself are not true, were you interested in truth.  You've chosen to cling to, and to repeat, things which are provably false, and to reject any efforts by me, or by others with firsthand knowledge of this religion, to tell you the truth about what our beliefs, teachings, and practices are.

  I find your conduct in this matter to be dishonest, dishonorable, and (dare I say it?) unchristian.



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Edited 7/1/01 12:03:10 AM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/13/2001 11:07 am  
To:  ALL   (49 of 69)  
 
  15.49 in reply to 15.48  
 
  This posting is actually an effort, in accordance with a request from our host, to move to this thread a discussion which has arisen out of another thread.  The subthread which is being continued here can be viewed by following this link.  To summarize where this thread stands, in my view, David has made the following claims, which I dispute:
Mormon scripture is plagiarized from the Bible.
Mormon scripture denies the deity of Jesus Christ.
The Bible is complete, obviating the need for any scripture outside of it.
  These are the claims which have been made by David, as I understand them.  If I've mischaracterized them in any way, then I have done so as an honest mistake, and invite correction.

  To claims 1 and 2, my response is to challenge David (or anyone else) to produce references to LDS scripture which meet these claims.  That is to say that for claim number 1, the challenge is to cite passages from LDS scripture which are plagiarized from the Bible, along with the Bible passages which are allegedly plagiarized therein; and for claim number two, the challenge is to cite a passage from LDS scripture which can fairly be said to deny the deity of Christ.  If David has the courage and honesty to allow this link to stand, I will point out that the entirety of the LDS Standard Works, which include the King James version of The Holy Bible, along with The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price, are available online at <http://****>, along with a usable search function.  If these first two claims are true, then it should not be difficult to find proof of them from that site.  I say go ahead and try; you will find no scripture which is either plagiarized from the Bible, nor which denies the deity of Christ.

  The third claim, that the Bible is complete and inerrant, and that there is no need for additional scripture, is somewhat more complex to refute.  My primary argument against this position is that the Bible contains internal proof of its own incompleteness, in that it contains numerous references to scriptures which are not contained within it, and which, in fact, are no longer known to mankind.  Here is a list of some references to Bible passages which make reference to these Lost Books:

Ex. 24: 7, Num. 21: 14, Josh. 10: 13, 1 Sam. 10: 25, 1 Kgs. 11: 41, 1 Chr. 29: 29, 2 Chr. 9: 29, 2 Chr. 12: 15, 2 Chr. 13: 22, 2 Chr. 20: 34, 2 Chr. 33: 19, Matt. 2: 23, 1 Cor. 5: 9, Eph. 3: 3, Col. 4: 16, Jude 1: 3, Jude 1: 14
  This list may be found online at <http://****>, with links to the actual text from the KJV version of The Bible, so that you can see for yourself.  Some useful commentary is found at <****>.  If David censors these links, as he has done before, then I will leave it to all readers to wonder why he is so afraid of letting you see this information for yourself, but will suggest that it is because these links prove that I am right and that he is wrong, and he is too cowardly to let this evidence be presented.  David, please prove that I am wrong to characterize you as a coward; the way to prove this is to let my links and my evidence stand, so that all may see for themselves what I am offering, and judge for themselves whether my position is true and correct.



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Edited 6/13/01 2:14:53 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/13/2001 12:26 pm  
To:  ALL   (50 of 69)  
 
  15.50 in reply to 15.49  
 
  I see that my previous posting was not up ten minutes before David censored the links contained therein.  I will point out that if claims 1 and 2 were true, then one of the links which David censored would have been most valuable in proving these claims.  I offered a link to where the LDS Standard Works were online, where you could search them yourself for evidence to support the claims made by David.

  The only logical thing to conclude, from David's actions, is that he does not want you to have the ability to see for yourself whether the claims he has made are true.  Are these actions more consistent with one who is confident in the truth of his position, or with one who knows his position to be untrue?  Which of these positions would be more conducive to a desire to censor and suppress evidence?

  David has made the excuse that this forum is for Christian Links, yet he has allowed many other decidedly non-Christian links to stand.  Note that there are several professed pagans who have included links to various openly-pagan web sites in their postings, and these links have not been censored.  There are a couple of links in a message not very far back form this in this very thread, which are not to Christian-oriented sites, and those have not been censored.  So far as I have seen, the only links which David has ever censored are links which directly challenge his own claims, and which tend to support views in opposition to his claims.  In fact, with only a single exception that I have seen (a link to an anti-homosexual site whose domain names echoes the claim that God hates homosexuals), it appears that David has singled out only my links for censorship, amid many other links which, were he to be consistent with his stated policy that this forum is for Christian Links, would clearly be much more in violation of this policy than any link which I have posted.

  Now don't get me wrong.  I understand that this is David's forum, and ultimately, he has the right to allow and to censor whatever he wishes within it.  He doesn't have to let me post at all in here, if that is his choice.  But the manner in which he moderates this forum does reflect on his character and his honesty.  If he professes to allow a frank discussion of a particular issue in here, but then censors evidence which supports the side to which he is opposed, then it should be obvious to all that he is not being honest.  And ultimately, I think this demonstrates that he has little confidence in the truth of his own position, for if he had confidence in the truth of his own position, then he would be confident in the ability of his position to stand in the face of any contrary evidence.  In fact, not only has he censored evidence which opposes his position, but if he really believed his position to be true, then he has censored evidence which he should logically have expected to support his position.



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Edited 6/13/01 3:32:30 PM ET by BOB_BLAYLOCK 
  
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/14/2001 10:39 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)    
 
    
 

This Info is taken from the following web site 
www.irr.org/mit/bombible.html 
"The contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible constitute a most serious obstacle to accepting the Book of Mormon as Latter-day scripture supplemental to the Bible." 

Contradictions Between the 
Book of Mormon and the Bible 
Copyright ?1999 Institute for Religious Research. All rights reserved. 

There are many serious objections to the claim of Joseph Smith and the LDS church that the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired latter-day scripture supplemental to the Bible. However, none are more significant than the numerous contradictions between Book of Mormon teaching and the Bible. This list is illustrative only, not exhaustive. 

1. The Book of Mormon teaches that little children are not capable of sin because they do not have a sinful nature (Moroni 8:8). In contrast, the Bible in Psalm 51:5 clearly teaches that we have sinful nature from birth: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (NIV). (This does not mean that those who die in infancy are lost.*) 

2. The Book of Mormon teaches that the disobedience of Adam and Eve in eating the forbidden fruit was necessary so that they could have children and bring joy to mankind (2 Nephi 2:23-25). In contrast, the Bible specifically declares that Adams transgression was a sinful act of rebellion that unleashed the power of sin and death in Gods perfect world (Romans 5:12; 8:20-21). There is no Biblical support for the view that Adam and Eve could only fulfill the command to "be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28) by disobeying Gods command regarding the forbidden fruit (Genesis 2:17). The Book of Mormon teaching that these divine commands are contradictory, and that God expected Adam and Eve to figure out that in reality He wanted them to break the latter command ("of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it") in order to keep the former ("be fruitful and multiply"), has no basis in logic or the Biblical text, and attributes equivocation to God. 

3. The Book of Mormon teaches that black skin is a sign of Gods curse, so that white-skinned people are considered morally and spiritually superior to black skinned people (2 Nephi 5:21). In contrast, the Bible teaches that God "made of one blood all nations of men" (Acts 17:26, KJV), that in Christ distinctions of ethnicity, gender and social class are erased (Galatians 3:28), and that God condemns favoritism (James 2:1). 

4. The Book of Mormon teaches that, "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23; see also Moroni 10:32). In contrast, the Bible teaches that apart from Christ we are dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1,5) and unable to do anything to merit forgiveness and eternal life. Salvation is wholly of grace (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 11:6; Titus 3:5-6), not by grace plus works. Good works are a result, not the basis, of a right relationship with God (Ephesians 2:10). 

5. According to the Book of Mormon, about 600 years before Christ, a Nephite prophet predicted that "many plain and precious parts" (1 Nephi 13:26-28) would be removed from the Bible. In contrast, from the Bible it is clear that during His earthly ministry, Jesus himself constantly quoted from the Old Testament Scriptures, and showed full confidence in their completeness and accurate transmission as they had survived down to His time. Jesus declared that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away" (Mark 13:31; see also Matthew 5:18), and promised His disciples who were to pen the New Testament that the Holy Ghost "shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26); Jesus further promised the apostles that they would "bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain" (John 15:16). These promises clearly imply that the fruit of the apostles  the New Testament Scriptures and the Christian church  would endure. 

6. According to a Book of Mormon prophecy (Helaman 14:27), at the time of Christs crucifixion "darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days." In contrast, the New Testament gospel accounts declare repeatedly that there was darkness for only three hours while Jesus was on the cross (Matthew 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:24). 

7. The Book of Mormon people are said to have observed "all things according to the law of Moses (2 Nephi 5:10; 25:24). However, although they are supposed to have been Hebrews, they were descendents of the tribe of Joseph (1 Nephi 5:17) or Manasseh (Alma 10:3), not the tribe of Levi and family line of Aaron, as the Law of Moses dictates (Numbers 3:10; Exodus 29:9; Numbers 18:1-7), so they would not have had a legitimate priesthood. 

8. According to the Book of Mormon, there were many high priests serving at the same time (Mosiah 11:11; Alma 13:9-10; 46:6,38; Helaman 3:25) in the New World, among those it describes as Jewish immigrants from ancient Israel who "kept the law of Moses" (e.g., 2 Nephi 25:10; Jacob 4:5; Jarom 1:5). In contrast, it is clear from the Bible that only one individual at a time occupied the office of high priest under the Old Testament dispensation (see, for example Leviticus 21:10; Matthew 26:3; Hebrews 8:6-7). (The mention in Luke 3:2 of "Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests" is not a real exception -- in Christs time Israel was under the domination of the Romans, who intervened to change the high priest at will. That is, this office became a kind of "political football," rather than following the appointment process dictated in the Law of Moses. See John 18:13, which describes Annas as "father-in-law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year.") 

9. The people described in the Book of Mormon operated multiple temples (Alma 16:13; 23:2; 26:29). This violates the dictates of the Old Testament Scriptures on two counts: First, God commanded Israel to build only one temple to reflect that fact that there is only one true God (Deuteronomy 12:5,13-14; 16:5-6). Second, the one legitimate temple was to be built in Jerusalem (Zion), the location designated by God (The Old Testament is filled with explicit references to God choosing Jerusalem [Zion] as the place where "His name would dwell" in the temple: for example, 1 Kings 8:44,48; 11:13,32,36; 14:21; 2 Kings 21:7; 23:27; 1 Chronicles 28:4; 2 Chronicles 6:6; 7:12,16; Psalm 78:68-69; Isaiah 18:7. 

10. The most common biblical terms used to describe the Old Testament priesthood, temple and appointed feasts, are entirely missing from the Book of Mormon. Here are 10 examples of such biblical terms with their frequencies, that never appear once in the Book of Mormon: 

"laver" (13 times in Bible) 
"incense" (121 times in Bible) 
"ark of the covenant" (48 times in Bible) 
"sons of Aaron" (97 times in Bible) 
"mercy seat" (23 in Bible) 
"day of atonement" (21 times in Bible) 
"feast of tabernacles" (17 times in Bible) 
"passover" (59 times in Bible) 
"house of the LORD" (627 in Bible) 
"Aaron"  this name appears 48 times in the Book of Mormon, but never in reference to the biblical Aaron or the Aaronic priesthood 
Conclusion: The contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible constitute a most serious obstacle to accepting the Book of Mormon as Latter-day scripture supplemental to the Bible. The Bible came first, not the Book of Mormon. And whereas the Bible is organically linked to the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ by extensive surviving manuscript evidence going back as far as A.D. 125-30, the Book of Mormon is wholly lacking in any such evidences of ancient origin. Is it not reasonable, therefore, to make the Bible the standard for judging the Book of Mormon, and not the other way around? If we accept the Bible as our "measuring stick" for spiritual truth, the Book of Mormon must be rejected. 

 Luke P. Wilson 
Copyright ?1999 Institute for Religious Research. All rights reserved. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/14/2001 10:43 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (52 of 69)  
 
  15.52 in reply to 15.15  
 
www.irr.org/mit/ 
Link to Mormon info: Examines the Lies of the Mormon church 
Link to Letters from Smithsonian Institute 
Denying any Scientific validity of the Book of Mormon 
www.irr.org/mit/smithson.html 

*The Smithsonian Institue calls the BoM a religious/spiritual book not a book of science. The Smithsonian dosn't Recognize the BoM as anything in connection to Christianity. 

Bob, 

You can always stop living the Lie of Mormonism and Become a true Christian follower of Jesus and have your sins forgiven to receive Eternal life in Jesus. Renounce the Lies of Mormonism, Renounce Joseph Smith and Live!!! 

I hope you do Brother!!!




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/14/2001 11:16 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (53 of 69)  
 
  15.53 in reply to 15.51  
 
  I will answer your most recent points later, when I have time.  In the mean time, let me point out that while I have responded to every point you've previously raised, you've not responded to many of the points I have raised; and in fact, you have failed to provide evidence to support many of your own claims.

  If you wish to stand by your claim that the Book of Mormon is plagiarized from the Bible (a rather odd claim to make together with the claim that it contradicts the Bible), then please cite a passage from the Book of Mormon which you claim is so plagiarized, along with the Bible passage from which you claim this plagiarism took place.

  If you wish your claim to stand that the Book of Mormon denies the deity of Jesus Christ, then please cite a passage from the Book of Mormon that does this.

  And if you wish your claim to stand that the Bible is complete, then please explain the references which I cited previously, to passages in the Bible which appear to refer to scriptures which are now missing.



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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/14/2001 2:43 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (54 of 69)  
 
  15.54 in reply to 15.52  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
www.irr.org/mit/
Link to Mormon info: Examines the Lies of the Mormon church

Link to Letters from Smithsonian Institute
Denying any Scientific validity of the Book of Mormon
www.irr.org/mit/smithson.html

*The Smithsonian Institue (sic) calls the BoM a religious/spiritual book not a book of science.
  So do we.  We've never claimed the Book of Mormon to be a scientific text.  It is indeed a spiritual and religious book.  In this respect, it is no different from The Holy Bible.



The Smithsonian dosn't (sic) Recognize the BoM as anything in connection to (sic) Christianity.
  Of course it doesn't.  The Smithsonian Institute is not any kind of authority on religious matters.  It is a scientific and historical agency, not a religious one.  Your statement makes as much sense as saying that The Federal Aviation Administation does not recognize a rabbit as a rodent.

  An in-depth discussion of the Smithsonian's standard letter concerning the Book of Mormon can be found at <http://farms.byu.edu/free/transcripts/tmpl.asp?content=sorenson95>.



You can always stop living the Lie of Mormonism and Become a true Christian follower of Jesus
  Like all faithful Mormons, I am a true Christian follower of Jesus.



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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/14/2001 2:58 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (55 of 69)  
 
  15.55 in reply to 15.51  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
This Info is taken from the following web site
www.irr.org/mit/bombible.html

"The contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible constitute a most serious obstacle to accepting the Book of Mormon as Latter-day scripture supplemental to the Bible."
  Responding to this message will require more time and attention than I can give to it right now.  I'll try to get to it later this evening.

  For now, I will say this much:  It is not obvious to me that any of the points raised in this message show clear contradictions between The Holy Bible and The Book of Mormon.  I think that I will find that most of the apparent contradictions will be easily explained under one of the following principles:
There are many areas in which even those you'd recognize as Christians are not in agreement with how to interpret certain passages in the Bible.  Some of your contradictions are based on certain interpretations of scripture, where other equally-valid interpretations do not produce these same contradictions.

The people in The Book of Mormon are different people than those in the Bible.  They were sent to a different place, and given different instructions, according to their different situations and needs.  They also might have had differing ideas regarding what was important to record, and what wasn't.





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 To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!

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From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/14/2001 10:32 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)     
 
    
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
1. The Book of Mormon teaches that little children are not capable of sin because they do not have a sinful nature (Moroni 8:8). In contrast, the Bible in Psalm 51:5 clearly teaches that we have sinful nature from birth: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (NIV). (This does not mean that those who die in infancy are lost.*)
  Are we in agreement that to sin requires some conscious knowledge of what one is doing, and that what one is doing is wrong?  Little children don't really know right from wrong until we teach them, or until they learn from their experiences.  Perhaps it would have been more accurate, rather than saying that little children are incapable of sin, to say instead that because they do not yet know right from wrong, they are not fully accountable for what they do, and their sin is not counted against them.

  I think most would agree that most of what is written in the Psalms is mean to be poetic, much more than to be literal truth.

  As for your final point here, that This does not mean that those who die in infancy are lost., I don't believe this is quite universally agreed among Christians.  Unless I'm mistaken, the Catholics used to believe that we are all born bearing the full onus of the sin committed by Adam and Eve, and that those who die without being baptized are automatically condemned to Hell.  More recently, they came up with the concept of Limbo, some kind of halfway place, not good, not evil, where those who die without being baptized, but without committing any significant sin of their own, are consigned.  But unless I'm mistaken, thpose who die in infancy, without being baptized, are, in the Catholic belief system, still forever denied access to Heaven.  Any Catholics in here, please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

  We Mormons, of course, believe very much the opposite.  Yes, Mankind is inherently prone to sinfullness.  Having been driven out of the presence of God, our natural tendency is to commit sin.  We reject the obscene and blasphemous concept of original sin, which would brand us as guilty for Adam's transgression, but this does not mean that all of us will not commit enough sins of our own, and that we do not bear the responsibility of resisting our tendency to sin, and of repenting for those sins which we do commit.



2. The Book of Mormon teaches that the disobedience of Adam and Eve in eating the forbidden fruit was necessary so that they could have children and bring joy to mankind (2 Nephi 2:23-25). In contrast, the Bible specifically declares that Adams transgression was a sinful act of rebellion that unleashed the power of sin and death in Gods perfect world (Romans 5:12; 8:20-21). There is no Biblical support for the view that Adam and Eve could only fulfill the command to "be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28) by disobeying Gods command regarding the forbidden fruit (Genesis 2:17). The Book of Mormon teaching that these divine commands are contradictory, and that God expected Adam and Eve to figure out that in reality He wanted them to break the latter command ("of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it") in order to keep the former ("be fruitful and multiply"), has no basis in logic or the Biblical text, and attributes equivocation to God.
  It is true that we believe that God's plan ultimately required that Adam and Eve must partake of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  This is important for more than just the ability to be fruitful and multiply.  Why they were initially commanded not to, and why Lucifer tempted them to do so, I do not know.  I am sure God had good reasons for the way he set this up, but he has thus far not chosen to reveal his full reasoning to us in this matter.  Perhaps at some point in time, when he felt Adam and Eve were ready, he would have commanded them to take the fruit.  Perhaps there was a need for Mankind to prove his Free Agency, by committing an act of defiance and independence.  What I do know is that God has much greater things in mind for us than are imagined by most Christians, and that the world that has come about in the fall of Adam, full of sin and sickness and death and all the evils and challenges that did not exist in the Garden of Eden, is necessary to prepare us for what lies ahead.

  We do not know how long Adam and Eve were in Eden before they took the fruit.  Perhaps it was less than a day; perhaps it was thousands of years.  I will point out that there is no Biblical evidence that they were fruitful and multiplied until after they took the fruit.

  Just for whatever thoughts this stirs up, I throw this out for consideration:  In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam and Eve, But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in th day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.  What did God mean by this?  The most obvious interpetation of this is that when they ate of the fruit, they would both be dead within a day.  But in Genesis 5:5, we learn that Adam lived for more than nine hundred years after that.  Was God telling the truth, or did he lie?  Or did he mean something other than what seems obvious?



3. The Book of Mormon teaches that black skin is a sign of Gods curse, so that white-skinned people are considered morally and spiritually superior to black skinned people (2 Nephi 5:21).
  There is a belief that has been around for a very long time, since long before Joseph Smith came along, which holds that the Negroid race is descended from Cain, and that their black skin is the mark which God put upon Cain after Abel was slain.  This was one of the excuses used to justify the practice of slavery, when it occurred early in our nation's history.  This belief has, at times, been popular among the LDS, as among those of other religions, but it has never been a doctrine of the LDS church.  Now the Book of Mormon passage which you cite does indicate an instance in which God did apparently mark a race as evil by darkening their skin, but it does not necessarily follow from this that all dark-skinned people bear a mark of evil which those of us having lighter skin do not bear.



4. The Book of Mormon teaches that, "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23; see also Moroni 10:32). In contrast, the Bible teaches that apart from Christ we are dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1,5) and unable to do anything to merit forgiveness and eternal life. Salvation is wholly of grace (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 11:6; Titus 3:5-6), not by grace plus works. Good works are a result, not the basis, of a right relationship with God (Ephesians 2:10).
  The Grace vs. Works controversy goes back for many, many centuries.  As far as I know, the Catholic church, along with the Episcopalians and the various Orthodox churches have always held that certain things are required of us, certain behaviors, obedience to God's commandments, Works, in order to achieve Eternal Life; while the protestants have tended more toward the notion that it is by grace alone that we are saved, and that what else we may do matters little.  In this respect, Mormonism is more like the Catholic, Episcopalian, and Orthodox sects than it is like the Protestant sects.  You've cited passages which seem to support the Protestant view, which emphasis Grace while disregarding Works.  But this ignores other passages in the Bible where we are repeatedly urged to follow God's commandments.  What do you think was meant in James 2:14 and James 2:17, where it is written:  What doth it profit, my brethren,though a man say he hath faith, and then not have works?  Can faith save him?Even so, faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.  You've selectively read parts of the Bible which emphasize Grace and Faith, and then attack the Book of Mormon because it mentions a need for good works as well.  Someone else could selectively read the Bible, noting the passages which emphasize good works, and obedience to God's commandments, and similarly attack the Book of Mormon for acknowledging that Faith and Grace are what ultimately save us.  Both points of view are wrong.  I think the Bible, when read as a whole, rather than by selectively picking and choosing those parts of it which support a pre-existing belief, fully supports the view found in the Book of Mormon, which holds that while we are ultimately saved by Grace, being incapable of fully earning our salvation by our own works, that it is still required of us that we do the best that we can.



5. According to the Book of Mormon, about 600 years before Christ, a Nephite prophet predicted that "many plain and precious parts" (1 Nephi 13:26-28) would be removed from the Bible. In contrast, from the Bible it is clear that during His earthly ministry, Jesus himself constantly quoted from the Old Testament Scriptures, and showed full confidence in their completeness and accurate transmission as they had survived down to His time. Jesus declared that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away" (Mark 13:31; see also Matthew 5:18), and promised His disciples who were to pen the New Testament that the Holy Ghost "shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26); Jesus further promised the apostles that they would "bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain" (John 15:16). These promises clearly imply that the fruit of the apostles  the New Testament Scriptures and the Christian church  would endure.
  They imply this, but I do not think this is a promise explictly made.  I've already demonstrated, in previous postings, that there is considerable evidence within the BIble as we now have it, that there is material missing from it.  There are numerous references in the Bible to books which are now missing.  See <http://scriptures.lds.org/bdl/lstbks> and http://scriptures.lds.org/tgs/scrptrsl>.



6. According to a Book of Mormon prophecy (Helaman 14:27), at the time of Christs crucifixion "darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days." In contrast, the New Testament gospel accounts declare repeatedly that there was darkness for only three hours while Jesus was on the cross (Matthew 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:24).
  Hmmmpossibly a translation error, or possibly what is written in the Bible doesn't quite mean what it appears to mean.  I note that all three acounts say that the darkness began in the third hour, and that it continued until the ninth hour, when Jesus died.  It doesn't explicitly say that the darkness ended at that time, only that the darkness continued at least until that time.



7. The Book of Mormon people are said to have observed "all things according to the law of Moses (2 Nephi 5:10; 25:24). However, although they are supposed to have been Hebrews, they were descendents of the tribe of Joseph (1 Nephi 5:17) or Manasseh (Alma 10:3), not the tribe of Levi and family line of Aaron, as the Law of Moses dictates (Numbers 3:10; Exodus 29:9; Numbers 18:1-7), so they would not have had a legitimate priesthood.

8. According to the Book of Mormon, there were many high priests serving at the same time (Mosiah 11:11; Alma 13:9-10; 46:6,38; Helaman 3:25) in the New World, among those it describes as Jewish immigrants from ancient Israel who "kept the law of Moses" (e.g., 2 Nephi 25:10; Jacob 4:5; Jarom 1:5). In contrast, it is clear from the Bible that only one individual at a time occupied the office of high priest under the Old Testament dispensation (see, for example Leviticus 21:10; Matthew 26:3; Hebrews 8:6-7). (The mention in Luke 3:2 of "Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests" is not a real exception -- in Christs time Israel was under the domination of the Romans, who intervened to change the high priest at will. That is, this office became a kind of "political football," rather than following the appointment process dictated in the Law of Moses. See John 18:13, which describes Annas as "father-in-law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year.")

9. The people described in the Book of Mormon operated multiple temples (Alma 16:13; 23:2; 26:29). This violates the dictates of the Old Testament Scriptures on two counts: First, God commanded Israel to build only one temple to reflect that fact that there is only one true God (Deuteronomy 12:5,13-14; 16:5-6). Second, the one legitimate temple was to be built in Jerusalem (Zion), the location designated by God (The Old Testament is filled with explicit references to God choosing Jerusalem [Zion] as the place where "His name would dwell" in the temple: for example, 1 Kings 8:44,48; 11:13,32,36; 14:21; 2 Kings 21:7; 23:27; 1 Chronicles 28:4; 2 Chronicles 6:6; 7:12,16; Psalm 78:68-69; Isaiah 18:7.
  These three items, I think, are instances in which different people, in different lands, with different needs, would have been given different instructions accordingly.  Surely, God would not want these people to be without the benefit of the Priesthood, and of the temples, so it stands to reason that he would have made whatever allowances were necessary so that these people could enjoy these benefits.  Perhaps the geographical dispersion of the Lehites made it less feasible for them to operate with only one Temple, than would have been the case with the old-world Jews clustered around Jerusalem.



10. The most common biblical terms used to describe the Old Testament priesthood, temple and appointed feasts, are entirely missing from the Book of Mormon
  It has never been claimed that the Book of Mormon contains the entirety of God's word.  Were this the case, we would have no need for the Bible, or any of our other scriptures.  We do not know, of course, whether the Lehites recorded the things you speak of; we do not know whether these things are to be found in the entire volume of bound metal plates from which Joseph Smith Translated the Book of Mormon.  What we do know is that The Book of Mormon represents only a portion of these records, that there is much more material which God did not instruct Joseph Smith to translate and publish at that time.



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 From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/14/2001 10:50 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (57 of 69)  
 
  15.57 in reply to 15.53  
 
Earlier, I wrote:
  If you wish to stand by your claim that the Book of Mormon is plagiarized from the Bible, then please cite a passage from the Book of Mormon which you claim is so plagiarized, along with the Bible passage from which you claim this plagiarism took place.

  If you wish your claim to stand that the Book of Mormon denies the deity of Jesus Christ, then please cite a passage from the Book of Mormon that does this.

  And if you wish your claim to stand that the Bible is complete, then please explain the references which I cited previously, to passages in the Bible which appear to refer to scriptures which are now missing.
  Two of these claims, you have made, but have provided no evidence to back them up.  The third claim, I have provided ample evidence to refute it, and you have not responded to my evidence.

  I take your failure to further defend these claims as a concession that you were mistaken in making them.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/14/2001 11:02 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (58 of 69)  
 
  15.58 in reply to 15.56  
 
In your responses it is easier to see why Mormonism has nothing in common to Christianity.
Mormonism is a Cult that tries to be a Religion that is why all of your responses deal with what Can man Physically do. Physically sin: Physically Die: Physically Please God:

Christianity is not a cult and it is not a religion. Christianity is a Relationship with God!

Adam and Eve Did die the day they disobeyed God and ate the Fruit. They Died/Separated from God Spirituality.

Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

God called out to Mankind because Mankind is separated by Sin from God. Jesus then reunited us to God. Christians are not separated from God. Mormons are separated from God.

Jesus said that sin is spiritual first then evident in physical actions. And yes Children are sinners.

Mormons are looking to Physical answers for Spiritual Questions, this will Never work. God is Spirit and Must be worshiped in Spirit and in Truth. Neither of which the Mormon Church does.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/15/2001 8:07 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (59 of 69)  
 
  15.59 in reply to 15.51  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
6. According to a Book of Mormon prophecy (Helaman 14:27), at the time of Christs crucifixion "darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days." In contrast, the New Testament gospel accounts declare repeatedly that there was darkness for only three hours while Jesus was on the cross (Matthew 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:24). 
  I have some further thoughts on this one.  I'll repeat my previous thought, which is to suggest that the Bible's account does not explicitly say that the darkness ended after three hours  only that it lasted at least that long.  Nevertheless, the Book of Mormon is about different people, on the opposite side of the Earth.  Helaman may have misunderstood what was revealed to him, or it may have been mistranslated.  Certainly, the Book of Mormon people, being on the one side of the Earth, would not have had any firsthand knowledge of what was occurring on the other side; they would likely have assumed that what they experienced at the time of Christ's crucifixion was the same all over the Earth.  The account of what happened to the Book of Mormon people during this time is found in 3 Nephi Chapters 8 and 9.  Their experience does seem to differ from that of the Bible people.  It is recorded that there was a period of three hours (perhaps the same three hours during which the Bible records that there was darkness) during which violent, destructive events took place  storms, earthquakes, fires, etc., followed by three days of total darkness.  This darkness is described as being like a thick mist, that no light could penetrate, and no fire or other light source could be kindled.  The Book of Mormon people might very well have supposed that this phenonemon covered the entire Earth, and so this is what was written; in truth, this phenonemon may well have been confined just to the part of the Earth inhabited by these people.

  And of course, we must always beware of passages in scripture which might have meanings other than the obvious literal meanings.  When Helaman prophesied that darkness would cover the whole Earth for three days, he might not have referred to physical darkness, but to a spiritual darkness, caused by the temporary absense of Jesus Christ, who is The Light of the World.  When you responded to my question about what God meant when he told Adam and Eve that inthe day that they ate of the fruit they should surely die, did you yourself not suggest such a non-obvious meaning?

  Anyway, I think this question calls for further research.  I'm not entirely satisfied with the answers I've come up with so far. 



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   From:  wknight001   6/20/2001 7:16 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (60 of 69)  
 
  15.60 in reply to 15.1  
 
The weird thing about the Mormons is DESPITE all these crazy beliefs, God being on planet Kolob, etc. they still manage to be very -good- people societally and culturally, having strong marriages, lots of children, avoiding addictions, and generally being very pleasant people. At least the Mormons I have met have been quite -nice-. 
God still grants His graces. And I guess that part of the reason must simply be when you -are- part of a cult, you are raised in such a way where you are in many ways -truly ignorant and innocent- of the reasons why not to believe what you have been taught. And at the same time caught up in the ties of the good things that you have been that have been tied to the false beliefs. 

I'm still learning more about the Mormons. Need to. His mercy towards them teaches me to learn more about His Ways. 

Sincerely, 

Jeffrey Thomas 
+AMDG 

 
  
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From:  wknight001   6/20/2001 7:24 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (61 of 69)  
 
  15.61 in reply to 15.56  
 
Dear Bob, 
RE: 
As for your final point here, that This does not mean that those who die in infancy are lost., I don't believe this is quite universally agreed among Christians. Unless I'm mistaken, the Catholics used to believe that we are all born bearing the full onus of the sin committed by Adam and Eve, and that those who die without being baptized are automatically condemned to Hell. More recently, they came up with the concept of Limbo, some kind of halfway place, not good, not evil, where those who die without being baptized, but without committing any significant sin of their own, are consigned. But unless I'm mistaken, thpose who die in infancy, without being baptized, are, in the Catholic belief system, still forever denied access to Heaven. Any Catholics in here, please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken. 

---- 

Yes, you are quite mistaken. The Church's beliefs regarding infants who die without baptism are simply that they are in God's hands, and we do not know. Neither 'limbo' nor the 'automatic condemnation to hell' have ever been taught by the Church. Limbo was a briefly popular idea among some theologians some years back, but never a doctrine. 

This is all because of course, for Catholics, baptism is a sacrament, an outward sign of the conferring of inward grace, and the Church doesn't feel free with anything more than 'hope' Mk 10:14, for those who die without it, because of the very firm statements of its necessity in such passages as Jn 3:5, and Mk 16:16. Baptism replaces circumcision. The Church simply will not contradict those passages but knowing God's love and mercy, 'hopes' that those who die without it, can reach the fullness of the beatific vision. And I believe they do. 

Sincerely, 

Jeffrey Thomas 
+AMDG 

 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/20/2001 8:49 pm  
To:  wknight001   (62 of 69)  
 
  15.62 in reply to 15.61  
 
WKNIGHT001 wrote:
[Quoting me]
Unless I'm mistaken, the Catholics used to believe thatthose who die without being baptized are automatically condemned to Hell. More recently, they came up with the concept of Limbo, some kind of halfway place, not good, not evil, where those who die without being baptized, but without committing any significant sin of their own, are consigned. But unless I'm mistaken, those who die in infancy, without being baptized, are, in the Catholic belief system, still forever denied access to Heaven. Any Catholics in here, please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.
Yes, you are quite mistaken. The Church's beliefs regarding infants who die without baptism are simply that they are in God's hands, and we do not know. Neither 'limbo' nor the 'automatic condemnation to hell' have ever been taught by the Church. Limbo was a briefly popular idea among some theologians some years back, but never a doctrine.
  I stand corrected, then.  There are no shortage of very bizarre myths going about concerning my religion.  I suppose it stands to reason that there are similar myths about Catholicism, and that this is one of them for which I was foolish enough to fall. 



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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/22/2001 1:38 pm  
To:  wknight001   (63 of 69)  
 
  15.63 in reply to 15.60  
 
WKNIGHT001 wrote:
The weird thing about the Mormons is DESPITE all these crazy beliefsthey still manage to be very -good- people societally and culturally, having strong marriages, lots of children, avoiding addictions, and generally being very pleasant people. At least the Mormons I have met have been quite -nice-.
  .
  .
  .
I'm still learning more about the Mormons. Need to. His mercy towards them teaches me to learn more about His Ways.
  I'm curious about what you think of David's earlier statement, and the thing that I have learned the Most is that Mormons are Liars and cannot be trusted. You Constantly Lie about what Mormonism is and what your Beliefs are. You lie to deceive unknowing and unsuspecting people..  Is this consistent with any of your own learning and observation?  Of cours eyou do not agree with many of our beliefs, but do you think our beliefs are anything other than what we publicly say that they are?



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  From:  wknight001   6/22/2001 2:53 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (64 of 69)  
 
  15.64 in reply to 15.63  
 
Dear Bob, 
From my experience the younger Mormons generally genuinely believe what they say, and do not seem to be liars at all. The impression one gets of the hierarchy, and to a degree some of the rest of Mormonism is a willingness to be historically revisionist to further the cause. And so yes, I do believe there is some deceit there. 

A common failing nowadays. 

From my experience with Mormons, limited as it has been (but not incredibly limited), is that they are not 'liars' in general, and in generally believe that they are right, and the Smithsonian is wrong, etc. 

I believe Mormons are still touched by the Holy Spirit despite their beliefs, sometimes in extraordinary ways--This is what I believe can happen to everyone who has the most minimalistic, flawed idea of what God is like but still believes in enough of Him to touch Him. I believe that some people are given extraordinary gifts that they keep no matter if they fall from grace or not--Unlike I believe some others do here. But it is quite clear to me that this is so. 

We have a common problem nowadays in that people believe that when the Holy Spirit touches them, in an extraordinary way, they base a religion off of it--Believe everything is alright now, when this is the beginning not the end. For only the pure of heart will see God. 

I have felt His presence among us as I have sat down with two Mormon missionaries and discussed scripture. I have felt a burning in my breast--Not at all related to Mormonism, but related to Catholicism, and very firey indeed. And I have hope that all people will eventually realize that truth is a Light on a Hillside that never has nor will go away, nor fail, and that unity is the Church of Jesus Christ, visible and solid and unfailing against Hell. 

But then--I am a Catholic. :) Thank you for your kind asking about what you said about Catholicism earlier. Many are not so kind to even ask for clarification, though it is the right thing to do. 

God bless you. 

Sincerely, 

Jeffrey Thomas 
+AMDG 

 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   7/13/2001 4:43 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (65 of 69)  
 
  15.65 in reply to 15.44  
 
Who says your Jesus is the correct Jesus? And don't say 'the Bible' because Mormons have a Bible too....

 
  
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Message 66 of 69 was Deleted    



  From:  DJ Sterf (djsterf)   7/13/2001 6:37 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (67 of 69)  
 
  15.67 in reply to 15.66  
 
lol, WHAAAAAAAAAT?!!!! It doesn't mean 'die'! My name is Sterling, with the last initial F, so people call me 'Sterf' for short. HAHAHAHAA? Where did you get 'die' from?

DJ Sterf 
http://djsterf.epinions.com
 
  
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   From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/15/2001 4:01 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (69 of 69)  
 
  15.69 in reply to 15.51  
 
Wow! Yet another Deletion... 
You know on.. 

http://www.delphi.com/firefight/start 

Lyrk And ardasteia's den of iniquity they don't censor out posts just because they aren't perfect. 

Al Kupone
 
  
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